From swiftwatergazette at bill Sat Jan 24 20:03:52 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at bill (Letters to the Editor) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:03:52 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] test Message-ID: <497BBA78.5090804@effros.com> From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Mon Jan 26 10:38:46 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:38:46 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Let The Games Begin Message-ID: <497DD906.3050707@effros.com> Here is the Mailing Address for the Swiftwater Gazette: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Mon Jan 26 11:34:35 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:34:35 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Administrative: An Invitation to Subscribe to The Swiftwater Gazette Letters to the Editor Email List Message-ID: <497DE61B.8010903@effros.com> The Letters to the Editor Section of The Swiftwater Gazette is now available for testing in Beta version. To join the list go to: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette Follow the directions. If anything is unclear, or doesn't work, let me know. Letters must be signed. The first time you post after signing up, it must be cleared by me, so there will be a delay. Switch to "Digest Mode" if you want to get just 1 email at the end of each day. (Switch to "Vacation Mode" if you don't want to get any email at all, but wish to retain your ability to immediately post to the list.) Subject lines must contain category information such as Jokes: Politics: R-22: Offensive: Sports: Weather: Drinking: Religion: Administrative: Music: Etiquette: Photos: etc. I am looking for editors for every category. I will handle Administrative: I will provide information about filters on a regular basis so people can filter in or out those messages they want and those they don't. 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Bill Effros The Swiftwater Gazette Letters to The Editor Section Administrator PS -- Feel free to forward this invitation to anyone you think might be interested. _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Mon Jan 26 11:49:30 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:49:30 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] info Message-ID: <497DE99A.9000705@effros.com> From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Mon Jan 26 17:26:30 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:26:30 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Administrative: An Invitation to Subscribe to The Swiftwater Gazette Letters to the Editor Email List Message-ID: <497E3896.3040802@effros.com> The Letters to the Editor Section of The Swiftwater Gazette is now available for testing in Beta version. To join the list go to: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette Follow the directions. If anything is unclear, or doesn't work, let me know. Letters must be signed. The first time you post after signing up, it must be cleared by me, so there will be a delay. Switch to "Digest Mode" if you want to get just 1 email at the end of each day. (Switch to "Vacation Mode" if you don't want to get any email at all, but wish to retain your ability to immediately post to the list.) Subject lines must contain category information such as Jokes: Politics: R-22: Offensive: Sports: Weather: Drinking: Religion: Administrative: Music: Etiquette: Photos: etc. I am looking for editors for every category. I will handle Administrative: I will provide information about filters on a regular basis so people can filter in or out those messages they want and those they don't. More information will be provided on the List, and everything posted to the list will be retained in the Archives which will be publicly available. Bill Effros The Swiftwater Gazette Letters to The Editor Section Administrator PS -- Feel free to forward this invitation to anyone you think might be interested. _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Tue Jan 27 07:43:41 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:43:41 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Congrats! America's Newest Paper Message-ID: <400985d70901270443h1fd94e8mc09f825431d2ddf5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Editor, Congratulations on the start-up of the SwiftWaterGazette, perhaps the only paper in America NOT facing bankruptcy. One of the reasons the big players in the MSM are near death is their refusal to publish stories that smaller ones will handle, like this one - http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2009/01/24/news/illinois/doc497a8dee574b2749712532.txt?sPos=3 Welcome to HopenChange! Brad From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Tue Jan 27 08:38:40 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:38:40 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Congrats! America's Newest Paper In-Reply-To: <400985d70901270443h1fd94e8mc09f825431d2ddf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901270443h1fd94e8mc09f825431d2ddf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497F0E60.9040104@effros.com> Thanks. Bill Effros Editor Letters to the Editor wrote: > Dear Editor, > > Congratulations on the start-up of the SwiftWaterGazette, perhaps the > only paper in America NOT facing bankruptcy. One of the reasons the > big players in the MSM are near death is their refusal to publish > stories that smaller ones will handle, like this one - > > http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2009/01/24/news/illinois/doc497a8dee574b2749712532.txt?sPos=3 > > Welcome to HopenChange! > > Brad > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Tue Jan 27 09:22:43 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:22:43 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Why Can't I Post? Message-ID: <497F18B3.1040708@effros.com> You must subscribe to The Swiftwater Gazette to freely post. Each message posted by non-members must first be cleared by me. This is how I filter out the spammers. Sometimes I'm not on top of all messages posted, so a message waits for me to find it before going through. Even after you become a subscriber, the first time you post, it must go through me. If I remember to clear your "moderator" flag, all subsequent posts go directly to all other subscribers, without waiting for my approval. I remember most of the time. If you are in "Digest" mode, you won't know you have posted until you get the next Digest. Once you are a subscriber, you can change your subscription around to suit yourself. You can go into "digest mode" so you only get one e-mail a day. You can go into "vacation mode", so you don't get any e-mail, but you retain the ability to post when you choose to do so. If you look in the subject line and it says within brackets "Swiftwater Gazette" that means it came through the list server, and every other subscriber got the same message. If your e-mail is not posting, even after you are a subscriber, send yourself a carbon copy at the same time you send to the Swiftwater Gazette. If you don't get the copy, the problem is on your end. If you do get the copy, but the email doesn't post to the Letters to the Editor, it is likely it really did post to the Gazette, as well, and you should get a reply at some point if you wait, or look around in your own computer. Check the security settings on your computer. Because of the high volume of email, some spam filters will identify The Swiftwater Gazette as spam, and throw some stuff into your junk folder. If you find some Swiftwater Gazette email in your junk folder, set your spam filter to accept all incoming email from "www.SwiftwaterGazette.com". If my server goes down, which sometimes happens, you won't get any Swiftwater Gazette email from anyone until we fix my server on my end. At that point, you'll get everything posted while we were down. The server isn't smart enough to arbitrarily discriminate against you. Bill Effros, Swiftwater Gazette Letters to the Editor List Administrator From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 06:25:44 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:25:44 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine Message-ID: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People truly do get the government they deserve. Disgusting! Brad From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 09:37:50 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> Brad, The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to make ends meet. Serves us right. I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying manufacturing over-capacity. I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. Bill Effros Letters to the Editor wrote: > Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - > The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of > the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the > business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on > over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled > brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to > let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain > and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and > grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put > politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when > challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) > with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after > 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really > about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People > truly do get the government they deserve. > > Disgusting! > > Brad > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 10:38:02 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:38:02 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing much for infrastructure. This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last election for The One to say "I won". You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes the rules. Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. Brad On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor wrote: > Brad, > > The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start > calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like > the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. > > The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent > that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the > situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the > slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" > > Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I > would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was > first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. > > I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. > > Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back > these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of > living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth > less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a > year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to > make ends meet. > > Serves us right. > > I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to > soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying > manufacturing over-capacity. > > I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. > > Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. > > Bill Effros > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: >> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >> truly do get the government they deserve. >> >> Disgusting! >> >> Brad >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 10:48:50 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:48:50 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place left to take it from. Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's problem. When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency manipulation. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. B. Letters to the Editor wrote: > Bill, > > Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into > perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last > time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been > spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new > SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's > roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by > Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing > much for infrastructure. > > This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the > next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last > election for The One to say "I won". > > You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about > inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and > it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, > Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating > their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make > them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really > in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the > Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes > the rules. > > Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor > wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >> >> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >> >> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >> >> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >> >> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >> make ends meet. >> >> Serves us right. >> >> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >> manufacturing over-capacity. >> >> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >> >> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>> >>> Disgusting! >>> >>> Brad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090128/d9c37237/attachment.html From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 10:57:30 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:57:30 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? The world has gone mad! Brad ----------------- The Republican pork barrel By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read the entire package." That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as we have our pork life-saver to cling to." McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert political control over state and local affairs. For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush said, ''the era of big government being over is over." Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor wrote: > No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. > > But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place > left to take it from. > > Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's > problem. > > When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency > manipulation. > > Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... > > On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. > > B. > > > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: > > Bill, > > Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into > perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last > time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been > spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new > SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's > roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by > Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing > much for infrastructure. > > This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the > next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last > election for The One to say "I won". > > You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about > inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and > it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, > Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating > their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make > them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really > in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the > Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes > the rules. > > Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor > wrote: > > > Brad, > > The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start > calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like > the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. > > The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent > that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the > situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the > slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" > > Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I > would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was > first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. > > I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. > > Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back > these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of > living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth > less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a > year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to > make ends meet. > > Serves us right. > > I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to > soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying > manufacturing over-capacity. > > I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. > > Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. > > Bill Effros > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: > > > Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - > The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of > the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the > business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on > over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled > brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to > let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain > and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and > grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put > politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when > challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) > with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after > 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really > about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People > truly do get the government they deserve. > > Disgusting! > > Brad > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 11:25:35 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:25:35 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> You're beating a dead horse here. Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to the inevitable. B. Letters to the Editor wrote: > Bill, > > Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where > the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican > pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a > new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? > > The world has gone mad! > > Brad > > ----------------- > > The Republican pork barrel > > By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 > > AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the > most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to > funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation > programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking > $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among > virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill > -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was > brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe > to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read > the entire package." > > That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the > House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. > > Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative > Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and > Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a > committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will > play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." > > One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward > of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 > million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to > the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is > earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is > specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million > for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in > Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's > wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act > -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. > > Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the > bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of > ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: > Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in > Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 > million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A > daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). > Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National > Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project > in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. > > If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon > greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not > Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply > have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of > Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey > and car keys to teenage boys." > > Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a > ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to > restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record > deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't > break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would > seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as > we have our pork life-saver to cling to." > > McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn > that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard > to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the > biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. > Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride > as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the > promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to > bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert > political control over state and local affairs. > > For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it > included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn > in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue > ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great > admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so > little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. > > When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic > opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would > unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush > said, ''the era of big government being over is over." > > Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal > sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party > -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to > fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. > > Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor > wrote: > >> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >> >> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place >> left to take it from. >> >> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's >> problem. >> >> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency >> manipulation. >> >> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >> >> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last >> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been >> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new >> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >> much for infrastructure. >> >> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >> election for The One to say "I won". >> >> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and >> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, >> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make >> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really >> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the >> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >> the rules. >> >> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >> >> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >> >> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >> >> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >> >> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >> make ends meet. >> >> Serves us right. >> >> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >> manufacturing over-capacity. >> >> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >> >> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> >> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >> truly do get the government they deserve. >> >> Disgusting! >> >> Brad >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090128/7346a5b7/attachment.html From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Wed Jan 28 18:55:10 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:55:10 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted nay. Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good measure. I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn thing on the floor should suffice. Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? Brad On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor wrote: > You're beating a dead horse here. > > Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. > > Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge > THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is > no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. > > I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to > admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to > the inevitable. > > B. > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: > > Bill, > > Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where > the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican > pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a > new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? > > The world has gone mad! > > Brad > > ----------------- > > The Republican pork barrel > > By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 > > AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the > most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to > funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation > programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking > $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among > virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill > -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was > brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe > to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read > the entire package." > > That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the > House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. > > Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative > Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and > Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a > committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will > play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." > > One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward > of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 > million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to > the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is > earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is > specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million > for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in > Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's > wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act > -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. > > Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the > bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of > ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: > Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in > Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 > million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A > daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). > Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National > Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project > in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. > > If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon > greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not > Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply > have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of > Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey > and car keys to teenage boys." > > Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a > ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to > restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record > deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't > break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would > seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as > we have our pork life-saver to cling to." > > McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn > that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard > to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the > biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. > Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride > as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the > promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to > bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert > political control over state and local affairs. > > For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it > included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn > in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue > ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great > admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so > little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. > > When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic > opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would > unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush > said, ''the era of big government being over is over." > > Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal > sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party > -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to > fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. > > Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor > wrote: > > > No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. > > But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place > left to take it from. > > Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's > problem. > > When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency > manipulation. > > Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... > > On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. > > B. > > > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: > > Bill, > > Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into > perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last > time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been > spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new > SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's > roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by > Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing > much for infrastructure. > > This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the > next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last > election for The One to say "I won". > > You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about > inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and > it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, > Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating > their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make > them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really > in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the > Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes > the rules. > > Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor > wrote: > > > Brad, > > The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start > calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like > the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. > > The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent > that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the > situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the > slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" > > Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I > would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was > first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. > > I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. > > Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back > these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of > living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth > less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a > year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to > make ends meet. > > Serves us right. > > I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to > soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying > manufacturing over-capacity. > > I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. > > Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. > > Bill Effros > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: > > > Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - > The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of > the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the > business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on > over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled > brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to > let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain > and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and > grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put > politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when > challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) > with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after > 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really > about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People > truly do get the government they deserve. > > Disgusting! > > Brad > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Thu Jan 29 09:26:46 2009 From: swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com (Letters to the Editor) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:26:46 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> How much will it cost? You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough guide (total household income) - Top 1% $~350,000 Top 5% $~150,000 Top 10% $~100,000 Top 25% $~64,000 Top 50% $~31,000 Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, plus interest. Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your indebtedness by more than 10 fold. Joe the Plumber got it right! Brad On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: > Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even > though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). > Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast > Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted > nay. > > Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this > socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good measure. > I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn > thing on the floor should suffice. > > Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? > > Brad > > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor > wrote: >> You're beating a dead horse here. >> >> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >> >> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge >> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is >> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >> >> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to >> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to >> the inevitable. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a >> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >> >> The world has gone mad! >> >> Brad >> >> ----------------- >> >> The Republican pork barrel >> >> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >> >> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to >> funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation >> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill >> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read >> the entire package." >> >> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >> >> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >> >> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward >> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to >> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act >> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >> >> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in >> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). >> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National >> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >> >> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not >> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of >> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey >> and car keys to teenage boys." >> >> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record >> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't >> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would >> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as >> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >> >> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn >> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. >> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride >> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the >> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >> political control over state and local affairs. >> >> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >> >> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would >> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >> >> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party >> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. >> >> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >> >> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >> >> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place >> left to take it from. >> >> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's >> problem. >> >> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency >> manipulation. >> >> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >> >> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last >> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been >> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new >> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >> much for infrastructure. >> >> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >> election for The One to say "I won". >> >> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and >> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, >> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make >> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really >> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the >> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >> the rules. >> >> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >> >> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >> >> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >> >> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >> >> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >> make ends meet. >> >> Serves us right. >> >> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >> manufacturing over-capacity. >> >> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >> >> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> >> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >> truly do get the government they deserve. >> >> Disgusting! >> >> Brad >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: whopaysthestimulus1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/fd6ce26e/attachment-0001.jpg From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 09:57:38 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:57:38 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981C3E2.8040107@effros.com> Brad, Missing a table. Doesn't matter. Nobody will really repay it anyhow--everybody will repay it--sort of. How does the country absorb the cost of all the people who won't have jobs? Stock market losses. Home losses. Pension losses. Most Americans simply won't be able to live as well in the future as they did in the past. This would be true with or without government intervention. Granted, the current "stimulus" package is silly. That's not what it is, at all. It's really welfare. But you get revolutions if you don't care for the masses in times of need. So what should we do? You can't let them starve in the streets--next thing you know you'll get a Typhoid Fever epidemic and calls to spend your money on universal health care. Bill Effros Letters to the Editor wrote: > How much will it cost? > > You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill > will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? > First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough > guide (total household income) - > > Top 1% $~350,000 > Top 5% $~150,000 > Top 10% $~100,000 > Top 25% $~64,000 > Top 50% $~31,000 > > Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how > much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, > plus interest. > > Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in > the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your > indebtedness by more than 10 fold. > > Joe the Plumber got it right! > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: > >> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted >> nay. >> >> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good measure. >> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >> thing on the floor should suffice. >> >> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >> >> Brad >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >>> You're beating a dead horse here. >>> >>> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >>> >>> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge >>> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is >>> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >>> >>> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to >>> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to >>> the inevitable. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >>> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >>> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a >>> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >>> >>> The world has gone mad! >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> ----------------- >>> >>> The Republican pork barrel >>> >>> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >>> >>> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >>> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to >>> funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation >>> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >>> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >>> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill >>> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >>> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >>> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read >>> the entire package." >>> >>> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >>> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >>> >>> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >>> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >>> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >>> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >>> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >>> >>> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward >>> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >>> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to >>> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >>> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >>> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >>> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >>> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >>> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act >>> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >>> >>> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >>> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >>> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >>> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in >>> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >>> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >>> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). >>> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National >>> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >>> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >>> >>> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >>> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not >>> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >>> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of >>> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey >>> and car keys to teenage boys." >>> >>> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >>> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >>> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record >>> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't >>> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would >>> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as >>> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >>> >>> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn >>> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >>> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >>> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. >>> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride >>> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the >>> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >>> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >>> political control over state and local affairs. >>> >>> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >>> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >>> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >>> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >>> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >>> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >>> >>> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >>> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would >>> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >>> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >>> >>> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >>> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party >>> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >>> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. >>> >>> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >>> >>> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place >>> left to take it from. >>> >>> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's >>> problem. >>> >>> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency >>> manipulation. >>> >>> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >>> >>> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >>> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last >>> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been >>> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new >>> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >>> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >>> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >>> much for infrastructure. >>> >>> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >>> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >>> election for The One to say "I won". >>> >>> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >>> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and >>> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, >>> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >>> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make >>> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really >>> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the >>> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >>> the rules. >>> >>> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >>> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >>> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >>> >>> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >>> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >>> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >>> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >>> >>> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >>> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >>> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >>> >>> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >>> >>> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >>> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >>> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >>> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >>> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >>> make ends meet. >>> >>> Serves us right. >>> >>> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >>> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >>> manufacturing over-capacity. >>> >>> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >>> >>> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>> >>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>> >>> Disgusting! >>> >>> Brad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 82991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/0255452e/attachment-0001.jpe From sanderico1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 09:45:49 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:45:49 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981C11D.6070204@gmail.com> Brad, Do you suppose the Fed will give me a zero percent interest loan so ... uh, nevermind .... Doesn't anyone understand compound interest anymore?? We have to be approaching the point where the interest costs we pay each year now would have covered the whole budget from probably just a few years back. And for all that we get what??? Oh yeah, the opportunity to borrow yet more money. Looking for Galt's Gulch these days. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Letters to the Editor wrote: > How much will it cost? > > You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill > will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? > First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough > guide (total household income) - > > Top 1% $~350,000 > Top 5% $~150,000 > Top 10% $~100,000 > Top 25% $~64,000 > Top 50% $~31,000 > > Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how > much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, > plus interest. > > Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in > the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your > indebtedness by more than 10 fold. > > Joe the Plumber got it right! > > Brad > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: > >> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted >> nay. >> >> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good measure. >> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >> thing on the floor should suffice. >> >> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >> >> Brad >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >>> You're beating a dead horse here. >>> >>> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >>> >>> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge >>> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is >>> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >>> >>> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to >>> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to >>> the inevitable. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >>> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >>> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a >>> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >>> >>> The world has gone mad! >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> ----------------- >>> >>> The Republican pork barrel >>> >>> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >>> >>> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >>> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to >>> funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation >>> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >>> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >>> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill >>> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >>> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >>> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read >>> the entire package." >>> >>> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >>> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >>> >>> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >>> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >>> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >>> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >>> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >>> >>> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward >>> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >>> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to >>> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >>> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >>> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >>> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >>> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >>> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act >>> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >>> >>> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >>> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >>> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >>> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in >>> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >>> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >>> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). >>> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National >>> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >>> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >>> >>> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >>> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not >>> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >>> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of >>> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey >>> and car keys to teenage boys." >>> >>> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >>> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >>> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record >>> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't >>> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would >>> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as >>> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >>> >>> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn >>> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >>> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >>> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. >>> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride >>> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the >>> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >>> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >>> political control over state and local affairs. >>> >>> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >>> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >>> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >>> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >>> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >>> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >>> >>> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >>> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would >>> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >>> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >>> >>> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >>> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party >>> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >>> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. >>> >>> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >>> >>> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place >>> left to take it from. >>> >>> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's >>> problem. >>> >>> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency >>> manipulation. >>> >>> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >>> >>> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >>> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last >>> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been >>> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new >>> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >>> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >>> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >>> much for infrastructure. >>> >>> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >>> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >>> election for The One to say "I won". >>> >>> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >>> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and >>> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, >>> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >>> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make >>> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really >>> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the >>> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >>> the rules. >>> >>> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >>> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >>> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >>> >>> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >>> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >>> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >>> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >>> >>> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >>> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >>> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >>> >>> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >>> >>> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >>> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >>> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >>> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >>> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >>> make ends meet. >>> >>> Serves us right. >>> >>> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >>> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >>> manufacturing over-capacity. >>> >>> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >>> >>> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>> >>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>> >>> Disgusting! >>> >>> Brad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 10:14:08 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:14:08 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <4981C11D.6070204@gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> <4981C11D.6070204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981C7C0.1060707@effros.com> Rik, Good to see you. Trying to get this list under control--I'm nowhere near as good at it as Michael. Bear with me, I'll get it functioning. The Town of Greenwich is getting very close to 0% interest. We just borrowed money at 0.38%. That's because the Town of Greenwich pays as it goes, or at least it used to, and we have unbelievable credit ratings. Of course, some genius in Town Government suggested that since the money was close to free (by the way 11 top Wall Street Firms bid on these bonds--no one had ever seen rates this close to 0) why didn't we borrow and spend more of it! I hope cooler heads have prevailed. When you live in a place where virtually none of your local taxes go toward interest payments, it's remarkable how far your tax dollars can go. Bill Effros Rik Sandberg wrote: > Brad, > > Do you suppose the Fed will give me a zero percent interest loan so ... > uh, nevermind .... > > Doesn't anyone understand compound interest anymore?? We have to be > approaching the point where the interest costs we pay each year now > would have covered the whole budget from probably just a few years back. > And for all that we get what??? Oh yeah, the opportunity to borrow yet > more money. > > Looking for Galt's Gulch these days. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Letters to the Editor wrote: > >> How much will it cost? >> >> You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill >> will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? >> First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough >> guide (total household income) - >> >> Top 1% $~350,000 >> Top 5% $~150,000 >> Top 10% $~100,000 >> Top 25% $~64,000 >> Top 50% $~31,000 >> >> Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how >> much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, >> plus interest. >> >> Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in >> the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your >> indebtedness by more than 10 fold. >> >> Joe the Plumber got it right! >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> >>> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >>> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >>> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >>> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted >>> nay. >>> >>> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >>> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good measure. >>> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >>> thing on the floor should suffice. >>> >>> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> You're beating a dead horse here. >>>> >>>> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >>>> >>>> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge >>>> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is >>>> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >>>> >>>> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to >>>> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to >>>> the inevitable. >>>> >>>> B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >>>> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >>>> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a >>>> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >>>> >>>> The world has gone mad! >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> ----------------- >>>> >>>> The Republican pork barrel >>>> >>>> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >>>> >>>> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >>>> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to >>>> funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation >>>> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >>>> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >>>> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill >>>> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >>>> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >>>> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read >>>> the entire package." >>>> >>>> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >>>> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >>>> >>>> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >>>> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >>>> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >>>> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >>>> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >>>> >>>> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward >>>> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >>>> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to >>>> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >>>> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >>>> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >>>> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >>>> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >>>> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act >>>> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >>>> >>>> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >>>> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >>>> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >>>> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in >>>> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >>>> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >>>> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). >>>> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National >>>> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >>>> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >>>> >>>> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >>>> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not >>>> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >>>> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of >>>> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey >>>> and car keys to teenage boys." >>>> >>>> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >>>> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >>>> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record >>>> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't >>>> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would >>>> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as >>>> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >>>> >>>> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn >>>> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >>>> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >>>> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. >>>> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride >>>> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the >>>> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >>>> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >>>> political control over state and local affairs. >>>> >>>> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >>>> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >>>> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >>>> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >>>> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >>>> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >>>> >>>> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >>>> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would >>>> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >>>> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >>>> >>>> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >>>> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party >>>> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >>>> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. >>>> >>>> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >>>> >>>> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place >>>> left to take it from. >>>> >>>> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's >>>> problem. >>>> >>>> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency >>>> manipulation. >>>> >>>> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >>>> >>>> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >>>> >>>> B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >>>> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last >>>> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been >>>> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new >>>> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >>>> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >>>> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >>>> much for infrastructure. >>>> >>>> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >>>> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >>>> election for The One to say "I won". >>>> >>>> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >>>> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and >>>> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, >>>> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >>>> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make >>>> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really >>>> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the >>>> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >>>> the rules. >>>> >>>> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >>>> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >>>> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >>>> >>>> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >>>> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >>>> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >>>> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >>>> >>>> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >>>> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >>>> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >>>> >>>> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >>>> >>>> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >>>> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >>>> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >>>> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >>>> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >>>> make ends meet. >>>> >>>> Serves us right. >>>> >>>> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >>>> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >>>> manufacturing over-capacity. >>>> >>>> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >>>> >>>> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >>>> >>>> Bill Effros >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >>>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >>>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >>>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >>>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >>>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >>>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >>>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >>>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >>>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >>>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>>> >>>> Disgusting! >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/5766c8e6/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 10:24:26 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:24:26 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics, Economics, and Swine In-Reply-To: <400985d70901290719h7f8bcb39od5422a18a9e486f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> <4981C3E2.8040107@effros.com> <400985d70901290719h7f8bcb39od5422a18a9e486f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981CA2A.3020606@effros.com> Brad, Are you getting receipt acknowledgments when you post to the list? The list is going on and off line as I tinker. I know Michael does these things in the middle of the night, but we're working then. B. OOps -- I see the list is now replying to individuals not back to the list. I'll be back. B. Brad Haslett wrote: > Bill, > > The table came through on your post - can't explain that one. > > As Rik pointed out, we're not to far from the law of diminishing > returns taking effect. We can't borrow our way out of having borrowed > too much money, unless of course you use inflation as a means to > devalue your debt. To my knowledge, we haven't cut any government > entitlements yet, so the 38% who don't pay taxes anyway have yet to > suffer much, yet. Is a revolution in the cards? Of course it is, > especially for China. The difference is, they have the reserves to > spend in order to head a revolution off, we have only the option to > borrow for more time. > > >From a purely political point of view, why should the Obama crowd care > one wit whether the minority party joins in this exercise or not? As > The One said himself to the minority whip Eric Cantor, "I won. I'm > trumping you on that". Trump away O'Messiah! You'll either be a hero > or a goat, why share the glory? - unless of course, you're not all > that sure it will work. > > We may very well be at the tipping point as a Republic. Margaret > Thatcher once said, "socialism sounds great until you run out of other > peoples money". > > Brad > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> Missing a table. >> >> Doesn't matter. Nobody will really repay it anyhow--everybody will repay >> it--sort of. >> >> How does the country absorb the cost of all the people who won't have jobs? >> >> Stock market losses. Home losses. Pension losses. >> >> Most Americans simply won't be able to live as well in the future as they >> did in the past. This would be true with or without government >> intervention. >> >> Granted, the current "stimulus" package is silly. That's not what it is, at >> all. It's really welfare. >> >> But you get revolutions if you don't care for the masses in times of need. >> >> So what should we do? >> >> You can't let them starve in the streets--next thing you know you'll get a >> Typhoid Fever epidemic and calls to spend your money on universal health >> care. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> How much will it cost? >> >> You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill >> will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? >> First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough >> guide (total household income) - >> >> Top 1% $~350,000 >> Top 5% $~150,000 >> Top 10% $~100,000 >> Top 25% $~64,000 >> Top 50% $~31,000 >> >> Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how >> much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, >> plus interest. >> >> Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in >> the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your >> indebtedness by more than 10 fold. >> >> Joe the Plumber got it right! >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> >> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted >> nay. >> >> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good measure. >> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >> thing on the floor should suffice. >> >> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >> >> Brad >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >> >> You're beating a dead horse here. >> >> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >> >> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to acknowledge >> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying "Where there is >> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >> >> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's impossible to >> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on the road to >> the inevitable. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is there a >> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >> >> The world has gone mad! >> >> Brad >> >> ----------------- >> >> The Republican pork barrel >> >> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >> >> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In addition to >> funding the interstate highway system and other federal transportation >> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous bill >> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had read >> the entire package." >> >> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >> >> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >> >> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels upward >> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 residents to >> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation Equity Act >> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >> >> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile trail in >> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 million). >> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The National >> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >> >> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, not >> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in ''Parliament of >> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey >> and car keys to teenage boys." >> >> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, record >> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" can't >> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It would >> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as long as >> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >> >> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to learn >> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but true. >> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with pride >> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed the >> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >> political control over state and local affairs. >> >> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >> >> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who would >> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >> >> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government party >> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the aisle. >> >> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >> >> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >> >> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and no place >> left to take it from. >> >> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no longer be W's >> problem. >> >> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than currency >> manipulation. >> >> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >> >> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The last >> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had been >> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a brand new >> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >> much for infrastructure. >> >> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >> election for The One to say "I won". >> >> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist policies and >> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in charge, >> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to make >> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's really >> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I guess the >> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >> the rules. >> >> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >> wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing like >> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >> >> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the extent >> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run on the >> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >> >> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never thought I >> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when it was >> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >> >> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >> >> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will pay back >> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are worth >> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make $50,000 a >> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and harder to >> make ends meet. >> >> Serves us right. >> >> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a war to >> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >> manufacturing over-capacity. >> >> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >> >> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Letters to the Editor wrote: >> >> >> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be over - >> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled borrowing on >> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were going to >> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term pain >> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our children and >> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >> truly do get the government they deserve. >> >> Disgusting! >> >> Brad >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> ________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/33843c1f/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 10:33:15 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:33:15 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Mechanics: Reply To Message-ID: <4981CC3B.70701@effros.com> There are dozens of switches to tinker with, and that's what I'm doing. Watch the "Reply To" section of your email. It has been mis-set to reply directly to me at the list, instead of going to all list members. Currently I think you will get an acknowledgment if it goes to the list, but not if it goes to me. I'll turn that off as soon as we all know that replies are going to everyone, and they quickly show up in our IN boxes. B. PS -- My computer keeps automatically filling in critical boxes with wrong information, so I keep knocking the list off-line for brief periods until I fix the problem. Please keep sending stuff in, but don't say anything important. From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 10:41:59 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:41:59 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Mechanics: Reply To In-Reply-To: <4981CA49.7070201@gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> <4981C11D.6070204@gmail.com> <4981C7C0.1060707@effros.com> <4981CA49.7070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981CE47.80000@effros.com> Rik, I'll never get as good as Michael, no matter how much I practice. But I should be able to get this list under control because I was able to do so with another list based on the R-22 list. It will just take me longer. It's hard to notice when correspondence moves off-list and starts going back-channel. I'm on it. You should get an acknowledgment every time you post to the list. (I know I do.) I'll turn that off as soon as I get things under control. B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Thanks Bill, > > Looks like your setup is going fine so far. Getting as good as Michael > might take a bit of practice. > > I hope your town is smart enough to figure out that deferring payment, > even at 0 interest just means that future spending will have to be > reduced by the amount it takes to service that debt. And we all know > how likely a reduction in spending is. No matter how we wiggle around, > there still ain't no free lunch. > > Anybody got directions to Galt's Gulch? > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate > preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: >> Rik, >> >> Good to see you. Trying to get this list under control--I'm nowhere >> near as good at it as Michael. Bear with me, I'll get it functioning. >> >> The Town of Greenwich is getting very close to 0% interest. >> >> We just borrowed money at 0.38%. >> >> That's because the Town of Greenwich pays as it goes, or at least it >> used to, and we have unbelievable credit ratings. >> >> Of course, some genius in Town Government suggested that since the >> money was close to free (by the way 11 top Wall Street Firms bid on >> these bonds--no one had ever seen rates this close to 0) why didn't >> we borrow and spend more of it! >> >> I hope cooler heads have prevailed. >> >> When you live in a place where virtually none of your local taxes go >> toward interest payments, it's remarkable how far your tax dollars >> can go. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Rik Sandberg wrote: >>> Brad, >>> >>> Do you suppose the Fed will give me a zero percent interest loan so >>> ... uh, nevermind .... >>> >>> Doesn't anyone understand compound interest anymore?? We have to be >>> approaching the point where the interest costs we pay each year now >>> would have covered the whole budget from probably just a few years >>> back. And for all that we get what??? Oh yeah, the opportunity to >>> borrow yet more money. >>> >>> Looking for Galt's Gulch these days. >>> >>> Rik >>> >>> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or >>> inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... >>> Robert Heinlein >>> >>> >>> >>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>> >>>> How much will it cost? >>>> >>>> You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill >>>> will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? >>>> First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough >>>> guide (total household income) - >>>> >>>> Top 1% $~350,000 >>>> Top 5% $~150,000 >>>> Top 10% $~100,000 >>>> Top 25% $~64,000 >>>> Top 50% $~31,000 >>>> >>>> Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how >>>> much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, >>>> plus interest. >>>> >>>> Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in >>>> the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your >>>> indebtedness by more than 10 fold. >>>> >>>> Joe the Plumber got it right! >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >>>>> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >>>>> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >>>>> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted >>>>> nay. >>>>> >>>>> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >>>>> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good >>>>> measure. >>>>> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >>>>> thing on the floor should suffice. >>>>> >>>>> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You're beating a dead horse here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to >>>>>> acknowledge >>>>>> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying >>>>>> "Where there is >>>>>> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's >>>>>> impossible to >>>>>> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on >>>>>> the road to >>>>>> the inevitable. >>>>>> >>>>>> B. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >>>>>> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >>>>>> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is >>>>>> there a >>>>>> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >>>>>> >>>>>> The world has gone mad! >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> The Republican pork barrel >>>>>> >>>>>> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >>>>>> >>>>>> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >>>>>> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In >>>>>> addition to >>>>>> funding the interstate highway system and other federal >>>>>> transportation >>>>>> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >>>>>> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >>>>>> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous >>>>>> bill >>>>>> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >>>>>> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >>>>>> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had >>>>>> read >>>>>> the entire package." >>>>>> >>>>>> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >>>>>> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >>>>>> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >>>>>> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >>>>>> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >>>>>> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >>>>>> >>>>>> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels >>>>>> upward >>>>>> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >>>>>> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 >>>>>> residents to >>>>>> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >>>>>> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >>>>>> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >>>>>> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >>>>>> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >>>>>> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation >>>>>> Equity Act >>>>>> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >>>>>> >>>>>> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >>>>>> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >>>>>> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >>>>>> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile >>>>>> trail in >>>>>> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >>>>>> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >>>>>> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 >>>>>> million). >>>>>> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The >>>>>> National >>>>>> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >>>>>> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >>>>>> >>>>>> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >>>>>> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, >>>>>> not >>>>>> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >>>>>> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in >>>>>> ''Parliament of >>>>>> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving >>>>>> whiskey >>>>>> and car keys to teenage boys." >>>>>> >>>>>> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >>>>>> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >>>>>> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, >>>>>> record >>>>>> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" >>>>>> can't >>>>>> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It >>>>>> would >>>>>> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as >>>>>> long as >>>>>> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >>>>>> >>>>>> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to >>>>>> learn >>>>>> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >>>>>> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >>>>>> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but >>>>>> true. >>>>>> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with >>>>>> pride >>>>>> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed >>>>>> the >>>>>> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >>>>>> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >>>>>> political control over state and local affairs. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >>>>>> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >>>>>> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >>>>>> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >>>>>> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >>>>>> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >>>>>> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who >>>>>> would >>>>>> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >>>>>> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >>>>>> >>>>>> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >>>>>> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government >>>>>> party >>>>>> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >>>>>> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the >>>>>> aisle. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >>>>>> >>>>>> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and >>>>>> no place >>>>>> left to take it from. >>>>>> >>>>>> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no >>>>>> longer be W's >>>>>> problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than >>>>>> currency >>>>>> manipulation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >>>>>> >>>>>> B. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >>>>>> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The >>>>>> last >>>>>> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had >>>>>> been >>>>>> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a >>>>>> brand new >>>>>> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >>>>>> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >>>>>> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >>>>>> much for infrastructure. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >>>>>> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >>>>>> election for The One to say "I won". >>>>>> >>>>>> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >>>>>> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist >>>>>> policies and >>>>>> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in >>>>>> charge, >>>>>> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >>>>>> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to >>>>>> make >>>>>> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's >>>>>> really >>>>>> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I >>>>>> guess the >>>>>> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >>>>>> the rules. >>>>>> >>>>>> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad, >>>>>> >>>>>> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >>>>>> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing >>>>>> like >>>>>> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >>>>>> >>>>>> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the >>>>>> extent >>>>>> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >>>>>> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run >>>>>> on the >>>>>> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never >>>>>> thought I >>>>>> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when >>>>>> it was >>>>>> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >>>>>> >>>>>> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will >>>>>> pay back >>>>>> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >>>>>> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are >>>>>> worth >>>>>> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make >>>>>> $50,000 a >>>>>> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and >>>>>> harder to >>>>>> make ends meet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Serves us right. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a >>>>>> war to >>>>>> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >>>>>> manufacturing over-capacity. >>>>>> >>>>>> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >>>>>> >>>>>> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Effros >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be >>>>>> over - >>>>>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >>>>>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>>>>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled >>>>>> borrowing on >>>>>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>>>>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were >>>>>> going to >>>>>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term >>>>>> pain >>>>>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our >>>>>> children and >>>>>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >>>>>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>>>>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >>>>>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >>>>>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >>>>>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>>>>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>>>>> >>>>>> Disgusting! >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 10:45:24 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:45:24 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Mechanics: Reply To In-Reply-To: <4981CE47.80000@effros.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> <4981C11D.6070204@gmail.com> <4981C7C0.1060707@effros.com> <4981CA49.7070201@gmail.com> <4981CE47.80000@effros.com> Message-ID: <4981CF14.6080606@effros.com> OK, That seemed to work. If you hit your "Reply To" button it should now reply to the list instead of replying to the individual who sent the original message. If it works for everyone else, I'll dump the acknowledgment notification. B. Bill Effros wrote: > Rik, > > I'll never get as good as Michael, no matter how much I practice. > > But I should be able to get this list under control because I was able > to do so with another list based on the R-22 list. It will just take me > longer. > > It's hard to notice when correspondence moves off-list and starts going > back-channel. I'm on it. You should get an acknowledgment every time > you post to the list. (I know I do.) I'll turn that off as soon as I > get things under control. > > B. > > > > > > Rik Sandberg wrote: > >> Thanks Bill, >> >> Looks like your setup is going fine so far. Getting as good as Michael >> might take a bit of practice. >> >> I hope your town is smart enough to figure out that deferring payment, >> even at 0 interest just means that future spending will have to be >> reduced by the amount it takes to service that debt. And we all know >> how likely a reduction in spending is. No matter how we wiggle around, >> there still ain't no free lunch. >> >> Anybody got directions to Galt's Gulch? >> Rik >> >> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate >> preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >> >> >> >> Bill Effros wrote: >> >>> Rik, >>> >>> Good to see you. Trying to get this list under control--I'm nowhere >>> near as good at it as Michael. Bear with me, I'll get it functioning. >>> >>> The Town of Greenwich is getting very close to 0% interest. >>> >>> We just borrowed money at 0.38%. >>> >>> That's because the Town of Greenwich pays as it goes, or at least it >>> used to, and we have unbelievable credit ratings. >>> >>> Of course, some genius in Town Government suggested that since the >>> money was close to free (by the way 11 top Wall Street Firms bid on >>> these bonds--no one had ever seen rates this close to 0) why didn't >>> we borrow and spend more of it! >>> >>> I hope cooler heads have prevailed. >>> >>> When you live in a place where virtually none of your local taxes go >>> toward interest payments, it's remarkable how far your tax dollars >>> can go. >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> >>> Rik Sandberg wrote: >>> >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> Do you suppose the Fed will give me a zero percent interest loan so >>>> ... uh, nevermind .... >>>> >>>> Doesn't anyone understand compound interest anymore?? We have to be >>>> approaching the point where the interest costs we pay each year now >>>> would have covered the whole budget from probably just a few years >>>> back. And for all that we get what??? Oh yeah, the opportunity to >>>> borrow yet more money. >>>> >>>> Looking for Galt's Gulch these days. >>>> >>>> Rik >>>> >>>> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or >>>> inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... >>>> Robert Heinlein >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> How much will it cost? >>>>> >>>>> You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" bill >>>>> will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? >>>>> First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough >>>>> guide (total household income) - >>>>> >>>>> Top 1% $~350,000 >>>>> Top 5% $~150,000 >>>>> Top 10% $~100,000 >>>>> Top 25% $~64,000 >>>>> Top 50% $~31,000 >>>>> >>>>> Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's how >>>>> much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, >>>>> plus interest. >>>>> >>>>> Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If you're in >>>>> the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your >>>>> indebtedness by more than 10 fold. >>>>> >>>>> Joe the Plumber got it right! >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >>>>>> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >>>>>> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >>>>>> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both voted >>>>>> nay. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >>>>>> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good >>>>>> measure. >>>>>> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >>>>>> thing on the floor should suffice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> You're beating a dead horse here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to >>>>>>> acknowledge >>>>>>> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying >>>>>>> "Where there is >>>>>>> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's >>>>>>> impossible to >>>>>>> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff on >>>>>>> the road to >>>>>>> the inevitable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. Where >>>>>>> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >>>>>>> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is >>>>>>> there a >>>>>>> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The world has gone mad! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Republican pork barrel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >>>>>>> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In >>>>>>> addition to >>>>>>> funding the interstate highway system and other federal >>>>>>> transportation >>>>>>> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, earmarking >>>>>>> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >>>>>>> virtually every congressional district in the land. The enormous >>>>>>> bill >>>>>>> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >>>>>>> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is safe >>>>>>> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, had >>>>>>> read >>>>>>> the entire package." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in the >>>>>>> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for Representative >>>>>>> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >>>>>>> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >>>>>>> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >>>>>>> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels >>>>>>> upward >>>>>>> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including $223 >>>>>>> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 >>>>>>> residents to >>>>>>> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >>>>>>> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >>>>>>> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 million >>>>>>> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates advancements in >>>>>>> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >>>>>>> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation >>>>>>> Equity Act >>>>>>> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >>>>>>> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >>>>>>> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with highways: >>>>>>> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile >>>>>>> trail in >>>>>>> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >>>>>>> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee ($532,000). A >>>>>>> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 >>>>>>> million). >>>>>>> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The >>>>>>> National >>>>>>> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley project >>>>>>> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >>>>>>> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named Congress, >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >>>>>>> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in >>>>>>> ''Parliament of >>>>>>> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving >>>>>>> whiskey >>>>>>> and car keys to teenage boys." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >>>>>>> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >>>>>>> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, >>>>>>> record >>>>>>> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? ''It >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as >>>>>>> long as >>>>>>> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers to >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. Hard >>>>>>> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >>>>>>> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but >>>>>>> true. >>>>>>> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with >>>>>>> pride >>>>>>> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they opposed >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically used to >>>>>>> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and assert >>>>>>> political control over state and local affairs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >>>>>>> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had drawn >>>>>>> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out blue >>>>>>> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a great >>>>>>> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >>>>>>> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >>>>>>> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >>>>>>> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >>>>>>> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government >>>>>>> party >>>>>>> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as eager to >>>>>>> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the >>>>>>> aisle. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, and >>>>>>> no place >>>>>>> left to take it from. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no >>>>>>> longer be W's >>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater than >>>>>>> currency >>>>>>> manipulation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >>>>>>> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. The >>>>>>> last >>>>>>> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money had >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a >>>>>>> brand new >>>>>>> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. There's >>>>>>> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL displaced by >>>>>>> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion doing >>>>>>> much for infrastructure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to buy the >>>>>>> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >>>>>>> election for The One to say "I won". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >>>>>>> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist >>>>>>> policies and >>>>>>> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in >>>>>>> charge, >>>>>>> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >>>>>>> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed to >>>>>>> make >>>>>>> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I >>>>>>> guess the >>>>>>> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes >>>>>>> the rules. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >>>>>>> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's nothing >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the >>>>>>> extent >>>>>>> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >>>>>>> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run >>>>>>> on the >>>>>>> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never >>>>>>> thought I >>>>>>> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program when >>>>>>> it was >>>>>>> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of convenience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will >>>>>>> pay back >>>>>>> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The standard of >>>>>>> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings are >>>>>>> worth >>>>>>> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make >>>>>>> $50,000 a >>>>>>> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and >>>>>>> harder to >>>>>>> make ends meet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Serves us right. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without a >>>>>>> war to >>>>>>> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >>>>>>> manufacturing over-capacity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Effros >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be >>>>>>> over - >>>>>>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The children of >>>>>>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>>>>>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled >>>>>>> borrowing on >>>>>>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>>>>>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short term >>>>>>> pain >>>>>>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our >>>>>>> children and >>>>>>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must put >>>>>>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>>>>>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a TRILLION) >>>>>>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until after >>>>>>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't really >>>>>>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>>>>>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Disgusting! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/58269422/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 10:55:11 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Mechanics: Reply To 2 In-Reply-To: <4981CF72.5050603@gmail.com> References: <400985d70901280325x24324ee8waa4ab68dcaaa2bcc@mail.gmail.com> <49806DBE.3040305@effros.com> <400985d70901280738n60a77eb2j3db27e9de5a751c6@mail.gmail.com> <49807E62.6030308@effros.com> <400985d70901280757o49a1eb77y326ab3d76d4275d@mail.gmail.com> <498086FF.4060606@effros.com> <400985d70901281555j2e45675bg3379779a45de0881@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901290626uea259d7sf3c5b5d15a50e70d@mail.gmail.com> <4981C11D.6070204@gmail.com> <4981C7C0.1060707@effros.com> <4981CA49.7070201@gmail.com> <4981CE47.80000@effros.com> <4981CF72.5050603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981D15F.8090800@effros.com> Rik, This came to me personally. I am sending it back to you only through the list. I am changing the Subject line to Reply to 2. Hit your reply button and send any additional text so we will know if it's working right. Thanks, B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Bill, > > Right now I am not getting a reply to address from either you or the > mail through the list address. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate > preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: >> Rik, >> >> I'll never get as good as Michael, no matter how much I practice. >> >> But I should be able to get this list under control because I was >> able to do so with another list based on the R-22 list. It will just >> take me longer. >> >> It's hard to notice when correspondence moves off-list and starts >> going back-channel. I'm on it. You should get an acknowledgment >> every time you post to the list. (I know I do.) I'll turn that off >> as soon as I get things under control. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> Rik Sandberg wrote: >> >>> Thanks Bill, >>> >>> Looks like your setup is going fine so far. Getting as good as >>> Michael might take a bit of practice. >>> >>> I hope your town is smart enough to figure out that deferring >>> payment, even at 0 interest just means that future spending will >>> have to be reduced by the amount it takes to service that debt. And >>> we all know how likely a reduction in spending is. No matter how we >>> wiggle around, there still ain't no free lunch. >>> >>> Anybody got directions to Galt's Gulch? >>> Rik >>> >>> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or >>> inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... >>> Robert Heinlein >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill Effros wrote: >>> >>>> Rik, >>>> >>>> Good to see you. Trying to get this list under control--I'm nowhere >>>> near as good at it as Michael. Bear with me, I'll get it functioning. >>>> >>>> The Town of Greenwich is getting very close to 0% interest. >>>> >>>> We just borrowed money at 0.38%. >>>> >>>> That's because the Town of Greenwich pays as it goes, or at least >>>> it used to, and we have unbelievable credit ratings. >>>> >>>> Of course, some genius in Town Government suggested that since the >>>> money was close to free (by the way 11 top Wall Street Firms bid on >>>> these bonds--no one had ever seen rates this close to 0) why didn't >>>> we borrow and spend more of it! >>>> >>>> I hope cooler heads have prevailed. >>>> >>>> When you live in a place where virtually none of your local taxes >>>> go toward interest payments, it's remarkable how far your tax >>>> dollars can go. >>>> >>>> Bill Effros >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Rik Sandberg wrote: >>>> >>>>> Brad, >>>>> >>>>> Do you suppose the Fed will give me a zero percent interest loan >>>>> so ... uh, nevermind .... >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't anyone understand compound interest anymore?? We have to >>>>> be approaching the point where the interest costs we pay each year >>>>> now would have covered the whole budget from probably just a few >>>>> years back. And for all that we get what??? Oh yeah, the >>>>> opportunity to borrow yet more money. >>>>> >>>>> Looking for Galt's Gulch these days. >>>>> >>>>> Rik >>>>> >>>>> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or >>>>> inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... >>>>> Robert Heinlein >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> How much will it cost? >>>>>> >>>>>> You've heard numbers tossed around about how much the "stimulus" >>>>>> bill >>>>>> will cost each taxpayer, but how much will it cost you personally? >>>>>> First, determine what percentage tax payer you are - here's a rough >>>>>> guide (total household income) - >>>>>> >>>>>> Top 1% $~350,000 >>>>>> Top 5% $~150,000 >>>>>> Top 10% $~100,000 >>>>>> Top 25% $~64,000 >>>>>> Top 50% $~31,000 >>>>>> >>>>>> Next, find your percentage bracket in the attached table - that's >>>>>> how >>>>>> much the government is going to borrow and how much YOU will repay, >>>>>> plus interest. >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember, only 5% of the spending is for infrastructure. If >>>>>> you're in >>>>>> the bottom 50%, this is a no-brainer -your rebates will offset your >>>>>> indebtedness by more than 10 fold. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe the Plumber got it right! >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Brad Haslett >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Congratulations to the opposition party for growing a pair (even >>>>>>> though that may not apply to my Congressman Marsha Blackburn). >>>>>>> Taylor, a Blue Dog Democrat from my adopted district of Gulf Coast >>>>>>> Mississippi and Cooper, a Dem as well from East Tennessee both >>>>>>> voted >>>>>>> nay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now it's on to the Senate to see how much more can be added to this >>>>>>> socialist spending bill with some highways thrown in for good >>>>>>> measure. >>>>>>> I suggest the minority Senators filibuster - just reading the damn >>>>>>> thing on the floor should suffice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Would you like fries with that CrapSandwich? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're beating a dead horse here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many of us have said the same thing for years. To no avail. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pat Buchanan (whether you agree with him or not you've got to >>>>>>>> acknowledge >>>>>>>> THIS man knows how to write a speech) quoted somebody saying >>>>>>>> "Where there is >>>>>>>> no solution, there is no problem." An interesting perspective. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see no solution to the current situation. Politically it's >>>>>>>> impossible to >>>>>>>> admit this and win elections, so you get a lot of silly stuff >>>>>>>> on the road to >>>>>>>> the inevitable. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Speaking of W's problems, I'm attaching an article from 2005. >>>>>>>> Where >>>>>>>> the hell did THAT money go? So let me get this right: Republican >>>>>>>> pork is bad but doubling down with Democratic pork is good? Is >>>>>>>> there a >>>>>>>> new party on the horizon? Is it time we started the Sanity party? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The world has gone mad! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Republican pork barrel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | August 4, 2005 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AT $286.4 BILLION, the highway bill just passed by Congress is the >>>>>>>> most expensive public works legislation in US history. In >>>>>>>> addition to >>>>>>>> funding the interstate highway system and other federal >>>>>>>> transportation >>>>>>>> programs, it sets a new record for pork-barrel spending, >>>>>>>> earmarking >>>>>>>> $24 billion for a staggering 6,376 pet projects, spread among >>>>>>>> virtually every congressional district in the land. The >>>>>>>> enormous bill >>>>>>>> -- 1,752 pages long -- wasn't made public until just before it was >>>>>>>> brought to a vote, and so, as The New York Times noted, ''it is >>>>>>>> safe >>>>>>>> to bet that none of the lawmakers, not even the main authors, >>>>>>>> had read >>>>>>>> the entire package." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That didn't stop them from voting for it. It passed 412 to 8 in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> House, 91 to 4 in the Senate. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Huge as the bill was, it wasn't quite huge enough for >>>>>>>> Representative >>>>>>>> Don Young of Alaska, chairman of the House Transportation and >>>>>>>> Infrastructure Committee. ''It's not as big as what he'd like," a >>>>>>>> committee spokesman said, ''but is still a very good bill and will >>>>>>>> play a major role in addressing transportation and highway needs." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One wonders what more Young could have wanted. The bill funnels >>>>>>>> upward >>>>>>>> of $941 million to 119 earmarked projects in Alaska, including >>>>>>>> $223 >>>>>>>> million for a mile-long bridge linking an island with 50 >>>>>>>> residents to >>>>>>>> the town of Ketchikan on the mainland. Another $231 million is >>>>>>>> earmarked for a new bridge in Anchorage, to be named -- this is >>>>>>>> specified in the legislation -- Don Young's Way. There is $3 >>>>>>>> million >>>>>>>> for a film ''about infrastructure that demonstrates >>>>>>>> advancements in >>>>>>>> Alaska, the last frontier." The bill even doffs its cap to Young's >>>>>>>> wife, Lu: The House formally called it ''The Transportation >>>>>>>> Equity Act >>>>>>>> -- a Legacy for Users," or TEA-LU. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Christmas didn't come early just for Alaska. Meander through the >>>>>>>> bill's endless line items and you find a remarkable variety of >>>>>>>> ''highway" projects, many of which have nothing to do with >>>>>>>> highways: >>>>>>>> Horse riding facilities in Virginia ($600,000). A snowmobile >>>>>>>> trail in >>>>>>>> Vermont ($5.9 million). Parking for New York's Harlem Hospital ($8 >>>>>>>> million). A bicycle and pedestrian trail in Tennessee >>>>>>>> ($532,000). A >>>>>>>> daycare center and park-and-ride facility in Illinois ($1.25 >>>>>>>> million). >>>>>>>> Dust control mitigation for rural Arkansas ($3 million). The >>>>>>>> National >>>>>>>> Packard Museum in Ohio ($2.75 million). A historical trolley >>>>>>>> project >>>>>>>> in Washington ($200,000). And on and on and on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If Carl Sandburg had lived to see this massive avalanche of bacon >>>>>>>> greasing its way down Capitol Hill, he would have named >>>>>>>> Congress, not >>>>>>>> Chicago, the hog butcher for the world. Or perhaps he would simply >>>>>>>> have seconded P.J. O'Rourke's timeless observation in >>>>>>>> ''Parliament of >>>>>>>> Whores": ''Giving money and power to government is like giving >>>>>>>> whiskey >>>>>>>> and car keys to teenage boys." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arizona Senator John McCain, who voted no, called the bill a >>>>>>>> ''monstrosity" and wondered whether it will ever be possible to >>>>>>>> restore fiscal sanity to Congress. If ''the combination of war, >>>>>>>> record >>>>>>>> deficits, and the largest public debt in the country's history" >>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>> break lawmakers' addiction to spending, he asked, what can? >>>>>>>> ''It would >>>>>>>> seem that this Congress can weather any storm thrown at it, as >>>>>>>> long as >>>>>>>> we have our pork life-saver to cling to." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> McCain is a Republican, and it might surprise younger readers >>>>>>>> to learn >>>>>>>> that spending discipline was once a basic Republican principle. >>>>>>>> Hard >>>>>>>> to believe in this era of bloated Republican budgets and the >>>>>>>> biggest-spending presidential administration in 40 years -- but >>>>>>>> true. >>>>>>>> Once upon a time Republicans actually described themselves with >>>>>>>> pride >>>>>>>> as fiscal conservatives. That was one of the reasons they >>>>>>>> opposed the >>>>>>>> promiscuous use of pork-barrel earmarks, which are typically >>>>>>>> used to >>>>>>>> bypass legislative standards, reward political favorites, and >>>>>>>> assert >>>>>>>> political control over state and local affairs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For example, Ronald Reagan vetoed the 1987 highway bill because it >>>>>>>> included 121 earmarks and was $10 billion over the line he had >>>>>>>> drawn >>>>>>>> in the sand. ''I haven't seen this much lard since I handed out >>>>>>>> blue >>>>>>>> ribbons at the Iowa State Fair," he said. President Bush is a >>>>>>>> great >>>>>>>> admirer of Reagan's record in foreign affairs. Too bad he shows so >>>>>>>> little interest in following the Gipper's fiscal lead as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When Bush ran for president in 2000, he described his Democratic >>>>>>>> opponent, Vice President Al Gore, as a reckless high-roller who >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> unbalance the budget. ''If the vice president gets elected," Bush >>>>>>>> said, ''the era of big government being over is over." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Five years later, what is over is the GOP reputation for fiscal >>>>>>>> sobriety. Republicans today are simply the other big-government >>>>>>>> party >>>>>>>> -- just as capable of squandering public funds, and just as >>>>>>>> eager to >>>>>>>> fill barrels with pork, as their fellow-spendthrifts across the >>>>>>>> aisle. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby at globe.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No doubt it's pork barrel spending by another name. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But there isn't enough money in the universe to make it work, >>>>>>>> and no place >>>>>>>> left to take it from. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Everyone will tap dance for a while, after which it will no >>>>>>>> longer be W's >>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When Caterpillar cuts 20,000 jobs the problem is far greater >>>>>>>> than currency >>>>>>>> manipulation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Talk about fiddling while Rome burns... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the other hand, maybe they do less damage this way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Only 45 billion is slated for infrastructure. To put that into >>>>>>>> perspective, 120 billion was allocated for Katrina recovery. >>>>>>>> The last >>>>>>>> time I checked (about a year ago), roughly 70% of that money >>>>>>>> had been >>>>>>>> spent - enough to provide two 2000 square foot houses with a >>>>>>>> brand new >>>>>>>> SUV in each driveway for every family displaced by Katrina. >>>>>>>> There's >>>>>>>> roughly 400,000 people in NOLA and another 80,000 STILL >>>>>>>> displaced by >>>>>>>> Katrina. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that 45 billion >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> much for infrastructure. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is pure pork politics and a poorly disguised attempt to >>>>>>>> buy the >>>>>>>> next election, as if there wasn't enough money spent on the last >>>>>>>> election for The One to say "I won". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're dead-on right about Hoover and most certainly correct about >>>>>>>> inflation. Hoover tried to engage in trade protectionist >>>>>>>> policies and >>>>>>>> it made the Great Depression much worse. Our new Tax Cheat in >>>>>>>> charge, >>>>>>>> Geitner, ran his mouth off against the Chinese about manipulating >>>>>>>> their currency (we all know they do it but you're not supposed >>>>>>>> to make >>>>>>>> them lose face over it) and they showed Geitner and Obama who's >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> in charge by running the RNB down the max range overnight. I >>>>>>>> guess the >>>>>>>> Chinese really do live by the Golden Rule; he who has the gold >>>>>>>> makes >>>>>>>> the rules. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Never underestimate the stupidity of collective behavior. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Letters to the Editor >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The only way the recession will be over by 2010 is if people start >>>>>>>> calling it by its true name. This is a depression. It's >>>>>>>> nothing like >>>>>>>> the cyclical hiccups we have seen since the end of WWII. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The current governmental thrashing is pointless, except to the >>>>>>>> extent >>>>>>>> that the Democrats will have to accept responsibility for the >>>>>>>> situation. The next Republican presidential candidate will run >>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>> slogan "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's hope some of this money goes to useful stuff. I never >>>>>>>> thought I >>>>>>>> would get as much use out of the Interstate Highway Program >>>>>>>> when it was >>>>>>>> first proposed. Now I regard it as almost a miracle of >>>>>>>> convenience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd love to see NYC get money for its subway system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Our children won't pay for this stuff, we will. Our kids will >>>>>>>> pay back >>>>>>>> these debts with massively inflated cheap dollars. The >>>>>>>> standard of >>>>>>>> living of older people will fall as their retirement savings >>>>>>>> are worth >>>>>>>> less and less in inflated terms. Burger flippers will make >>>>>>>> $50,000 a >>>>>>>> year, while retirees will grumble about how it gets harder and >>>>>>>> harder to >>>>>>>> make ends meet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Serves us right. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can't figure out how to put an end to the depression without >>>>>>>> a war to >>>>>>>> soak up excess capacity and reduce population while destroying >>>>>>>> manufacturing over-capacity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I haven't seen where anyone else has figured it out, either. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Obama is employing the same strategies as Herbert Hoover. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill Effros >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Letters to the Editor wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well Boys and Girls, by the time you read this the vote may be >>>>>>>> over - >>>>>>>> The Great Generational Theft Act of 2009 may be law. The >>>>>>>> children of >>>>>>>> the Greatest Generation can't stomach a single downturn in the >>>>>>>> business cycle after two decades of prosperity, unbridled >>>>>>>> borrowing on >>>>>>>> over-inflated assets, and uncontrolled spending. So these spoiled >>>>>>>> brats want more borrowing, more spending (only this time were >>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>> let Washington, DC do the spending), and anything but short >>>>>>>> term pain >>>>>>>> and suffering for a condition of our own making - let our >>>>>>>> children and >>>>>>>> grandchildren pay for our sins. Our new President says we must >>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>> politics aside and then tells the opposition party, "I won", when >>>>>>>> challenged on the wisdom of borrowing $825 Billion (over a >>>>>>>> TRILLION) >>>>>>>> with interest. Most (80%) of this money won't be spent until >>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>> 2010 when the recession should be over anyway, so this isn't >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> about economics, its pure pork politics, plain and simple. People >>>>>>>> truly do get the government they deserve. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Disgusting! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > From sanderico1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 10:58:36 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:58:36 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] testing "reply to" Message-ID: <4981D22C.6010101@gmail.com> Just checking for a reply to address Rik -- "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein From mweisner at ebsmed.com Thu Jan 29 11:13:28 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:13:28 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] testing "reply to" References: <4981D22C.6010101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AFFFB6C2F88483B99DF20182B1C9059@ebsoffice> Bill, All of these messages show the originator in the reply to not the Gazette. I just hit reply and think that it will be going to Rik. I added the list as a cc just in case. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Sandberg" To: Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:58 AM Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] testing "reply to" > Just checking for a reply to address > > Rik > > -- > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate > preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 11:22:10 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:22:10 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Reply To Not Working -- Got To Plow Driveway Message-ID: <4981D7B2.1090004@effros.com> Thanks, Rik and Mike, It appears for the moment you've got to make sure the To: box goes to swiftwatergazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com for your posting to go to the entire list. I flipped off the "moderator" flag for everyone I know who joined the list up to this point, so most of you should be able to post to the list provided you don't hit the "reply to" button, but instead insert the above address. Got to do the driveway. I'll get back to work on this after that. (I've got a long driveway.) B. From sanderico1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 11:23:24 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:23:24 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] testing "reply to" In-Reply-To: <1AFFFB6C2F88483B99DF20182B1C9059@ebsoffice> References: <4981D22C.6010101@gmail.com> <1AFFFB6C2F88483B99DF20182B1C9059@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <4981D7FC.3050505@gmail.com> Yep, this came to me from Michael, not the list. "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Bill, > > All of these messages show the originator in the reply to not the > Gazette. I just hit reply and think that it will be going to Rik. I > added the list as a cc just in case. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Sandberg" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:58 AM > Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] testing "reply to" > > >> Just checking for a reply to address >> >> Rik >> >> -- >> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate >> preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 11:25:09 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:25:09 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] testing "reply to" In-Reply-To: <4981D22C.6010101@gmail.com> References: <4981D22C.6010101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981D865.6020105@effros.com> Rick, This one went through to the list, but when I hit "reply to" it went to you personally. I manually changed the To box so the whole list could see the problem is still not fixed. B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Just checking for a reply to address > > Rik > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 14:15:43 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:15:43 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Mike -- You Know This Program? Message-ID: <4982005F.2090002@effros.com> Thanks, Mike, I switched it. Now to see if the Reply to works properly. Bill Effros List Administrator From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 14:17:07 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:17:07 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Mike -- You Know This Program? In-Reply-To: <4982005F.2090002@effros.com> References: <4982005F.2090002@effros.com> Message-ID: <498200B3.3050504@effros.com> Well, It worked for me! LMK if it is working for others. B. Bill Effros wrote: > Thanks, Mike, > > I switched it. Now to see if the Reply to works properly. > > Bill Effros > List Administrator > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com. > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Thu Jan 29 14:19:21 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:19:21 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] test Message-ID: <71F4E533F7DA4EDC9C35A2CC954DC9A8@ebsoffice> testing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/21ca1c50/attachment.html From sanderico1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 14:31:43 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:31:43 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] test In-Reply-To: <71F4E533F7DA4EDC9C35A2CC954DC9A8@ebsoffice> References: <71F4E533F7DA4EDC9C35A2CC954DC9A8@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <4982041F.3060206@gmail.com> Bill, Nope. I hit the reply on Michael's "test" post and it would go direct to his email if I sent it the way it is. I'm still not seeing a "reply to" address at all Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Michael D. Weisner wrote: > testing > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com. > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 14:37:08 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] test In-Reply-To: <4982041F.3060206@gmail.com> References: <71F4E533F7DA4EDC9C35A2CC954DC9A8@ebsoffice> <4982041F.3060206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49820564.7040109@effros.com> Thanks, Guys, Back to the drawing board. B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Bill, > > Nope. I hit the reply on Michael's "test" post and it would go direct to > his email if I sent it the way it is. > > I'm still not seeing a "reply to" address at all > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Michael D. Weisner wrote: > >> testing >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com. >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com. > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/9ae91c68/attachment.html From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 14:43:30 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:43:30 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 3 Message-ID: <498206E2.20105@effros.com> How About Now? B. From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 14:44:45 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:44:45 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 3 In-Reply-To: <498206E2.20105@effros.com> References: <498206E2.20105@effros.com> Message-ID: <4982072D.9080802@effros.com> Well, Again it works for me. How about you? B. Bill Effros wrote: > How About Now? > > B. > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Thu Jan 29 14:46:42 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:46:42 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 3 References: <498206E2.20105@effros.com> <4982072D.9080802@effros.com> Message-ID: <0F13A7289A8D4BC083E41EAAFA52858C@ebsoffice> Bill, Still has your personal address as reply to. Checkout the docs at: http://staff.imsa.edu/~ckolar/mailman/mailman-administration-v2.pdf especially page 2: "Where are replies to list directed?" and "Explicit Reply-To" sections Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Effros" To: "SwiftwaterGazette" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 3 > Well, Again it works for me. > > How about you? > > B. > > > > Bill Effros wrote: >> How About Now? >> >> B. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 14:58:07 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 3 In-Reply-To: <0F13A7289A8D4BC083E41EAAFA52858C@ebsoffice> References: <498206E2.20105@effros.com> <4982072D.9080802@effros.com> <0F13A7289A8D4BC083E41EAAFA52858C@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <49820A4F.9020805@effros.com> Thanks, Mike, I'm on it. B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Bill, > > Still has your personal address as reply to. > > Checkout the docs at: > http://staff.imsa.edu/~ckolar/mailman/mailman-administration-v2.pdf > > especially page 2: > > "Where are replies to list directed?" and "Explicit Reply-To" sections > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Effros" > To: "SwiftwaterGazette" > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 3 > > > >> Well, Again it works for me. >> >> How about you? >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Bill Effros wrote: >> >>> How About Now? >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/0335e053/attachment.html From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 15:02:59 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:02:59 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 Message-ID: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> How about now? B. From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 15:04:00 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:04:00 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 In-Reply-To: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> Message-ID: <49820BB0.1070302@effros.com> Still works for me, but clearly that doesn't mean much. B. Bill Effros wrote: > How about now? > > B. > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Thu Jan 29 15:05:09 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:05:09 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> Message-ID: It works!!! Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Effros" To: "SwiftwaterGazette" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 > How about now? > > B. > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 15:08:50 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 In-Reply-To: References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> Message-ID: <49820CD2.40201@effros.com> Thank you, Mike. Just give me enough shots at the apple, and I'll finally get it. I'll turn off the confirmation later. Then I'll start putting other things in order. Thanks for hanging in there with me. Let me know if anything else isn't working right, or any other improvements we can make to allow the list to function more smoothly. B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: > It works!!! > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Effros" > To: "SwiftwaterGazette" > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:02 PM > Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 > > > >> How about now? >> >> B. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/6820f0f0/attachment.html From mweisner at ebsmed.com Thu Jan 29 15:12:44 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:12:44 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> <49820CD2.40201@effros.com> Message-ID: <8F9F37BAFF9F4FFB86E03B5192B70FBA@ebsoffice> Bill, The list is usable, I think. I turned off my ack flag on the options page. Anything else isn't working right ... just give me a minute and I'll make you a list ... nah, you can't get me that easily! Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Effros To: SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 Thank you, Mike. Just give me enough shots at the apple, and I'll finally get it. I'll turn off the confirmation later. Then I'll start putting other things in order. Thanks for hanging in there with me. Let me know if anything else isn't working right, or any other improvements we can make to allow the list to function more smoothly. B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: It works!!! Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Effros" To: "SwiftwaterGazette" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 How about now? B. _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/dff78c83/attachment.html From sanderico1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 16:24:04 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:24:04 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 In-Reply-To: <49820BB0.1070302@effros.com> References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> <49820BB0.1070302@effros.com> Message-ID: <49821E74.8050506@gmail.com> Yeah that's it. I've got a "reply to" for swiftwater now Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Bill Effros wrote: > Still works for me, but clearly that doesn't mean much. > > B. > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > >> How about now? >> >> B. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 16:35:16 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:35:16 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 In-Reply-To: <49821E74.8050506@gmail.com> References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> <49820BB0.1070302@effros.com> <49821E74.8050506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49822114.5090708@effros.com> Thanks, Rik, B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Yeah that's it. I've got a "reply to" for swiftwater now > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > >> Still works for me, but clearly that doesn't mean much. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Bill Effros wrote: >> >> >>> How about now? >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/2d110b52/attachment.html From mjm at michaelmeltzer.com Thu Jan 29 17:59:13 2009 From: mjm at michaelmeltzer.com (michael meltzer) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:59:13 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 In-Reply-To: <49822114.5090708@effros.com> References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> <49820BB0.1070302@effros.com> <49821E74.8050506@gmail.com> <49822114.5090708@effros.com> Message-ID: <01f201c98265$342c0e20$9c842a60$@com> Do you need some help? (And the resign I do it at night is because it when I have time). -mjm From: swiftwatergazette-bounces+mjm=michaelmeltzer.com at mailman.theswiftwatergazett e.com [mailto:swiftwatergazette-bounces+mjm=michaelmeltzer.com at mailman.theswiftwat ergazette.com] On Behalf Of Bill Effros Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:35 PM To: SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 Thanks, Rik, B. Rik Sandberg wrote: Yeah that's it. I've got a "reply to" for swiftwater now Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Bill Effros wrote: Still works for me, but clearly that doesn't mean much. B. Bill Effros wrote: How about now? B. _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazet te _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazet te _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazet te -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/748553ff/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 19:02:40 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:02:40 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 In-Reply-To: <01f201c98265$342c0e20$9c842a60$@com> References: <49820B73.9040609@effros.com> <49820BB0.1070302@effros.com> <49821E74.8050506@gmail.com> <49822114.5090708@effros.com> <01f201c98265$342c0e20$9c842a60$@com> Message-ID: <498243A0.3020504@effros.com> Thanks, Michael, I think it's under control right now, but I'm sure I'll need help at some point. Let's let it cruise along on auto-pilot and see what happens. Everyone knows I'm at the controls right now, but we don't seem to be heading for the Hudson River. I'll holler if I get in trouble. Thanks for offering. B. michael meltzer wrote: > > Do you need some help? (And the resign I do it at night is because it > when I have time). > > -mjm > > > > *From:* > swiftwatergazette-bounces+mjm=michaelmeltzer.com at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > [mailto:swiftwatergazette-bounces+mjm=michaelmeltzer.com at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com] > *On Behalf Of *Bill Effros > *Sent:* Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:35 PM > *To:* SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > *Subject:* Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Reply To 4 > > > > Thanks, Rik, > > B. > > > > Rik Sandberg wrote: > > Yeah that's it. I've got a "reply to" for swiftwater now > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > > > Still works for me, but clearly that doesn't mean much. > > > > B. > > > > > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > > > > > > How about now? > > > > B. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090129/a358733d/attachment.html From flybrad at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 21:53:27 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:53:27 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus Message-ID: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. Brad -------------- Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in the near future. White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the U.S. mission to the United Nations. At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the Middle East. Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, although the conversation was inaudible. Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's campaign. Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit she has put forward is really unattractive." A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to her admiration for Clinton. She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to this kind of attack politics." From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 22:04:36 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:04:36 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus In-Reply-To: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> Seems to me she was slated for a job in the State Department before Clinton was selected Sec. of State. I guess Hillary gets to keep her at arm's length. Bill Effros Brad Haslett wrote: > This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in > the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. > > Brad > > -------------- > > Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide > > By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago > > WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who > earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while > working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign > policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. > > Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be > senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security > Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel > with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often > accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. > > The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's > position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet > been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in > the near future. > > White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. > > Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" > comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after > the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was > included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the > U.S. mission to the United Nations. > > At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture > to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and > Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week > when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama > announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the > Middle East. > > Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, > although the conversation was inaudible. > > Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global > humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of > the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she > called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. > Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's > campaign. > > Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing > to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. > "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit > she has put forward is really unattractive." > > A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her > resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to > her admiration for Clinton. > > She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely > clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." > > Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to > supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for > contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to > this kind of attack politics." > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Thu Jan 29 22:08:58 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:08:58 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Blago Message-ID: <49826F4A.7020000@effros.com> Brad, Gonna miss him until the trial cranks up. He was right about impeaching somebody based merely on accusations. That's going to come back to haunt everybody. 1/2 the people who convicted him are going to be charged before this is over. All impeachments are political. There have got to be charges made against Obama, too. Everyone will change their tune at that point. And if you were Blago at trial, what would you do? Bill Effros From flybrad at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 22:21:26 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:21:26 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Blago In-Reply-To: <49826F4A.7020000@effros.com> References: <49826F4A.7020000@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901291921g6ff53c0ahfcbd683452bd7f91@mail.gmail.com> Bill, "And if you were Blago at trial, what would you do?" The first thing Blago needs is an out of town law firm to represent him at the trial. The impeachment WAS political - they didn't have much against him, they just want him to keep quiet. It will backfire. Did you listen to his pleadings today? He hinted that the process being used against him could be used against people at the highest level. Who'da think he had in mind? I'm betting that near the end of his criminal trial, after Fitz has presented a 'bullet proof' case, Blago's legal team will start offering information for a plea bargain. Better stock-up on popcorn, this could be a long movie. Brad On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad, > > Gonna miss him until the trial cranks up. > > He was right about impeaching somebody based merely on accusations. > That's going to come back to haunt everybody. > > 1/2 the people who convicted him are going to be charged before this is > over. > > All impeachments are political. > > There have got to be charges made against Obama, too. Everyone will > change their tune at that point. > > And if you were Blago at trial, what would you do? > > Bill Effros > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From flybrad at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 22:33:51 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:33:51 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus In-Reply-To: <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> References: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901291933t3989737fuf715dc8a7bebc01a@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Here's some reading on Ms. Power for those not familiar with her - http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-hating-samantha-power-named-key.html Let's hope Hillary keeps her at arms length. I trust Hillary (did I just say that?), I don't trust Samantha Power any further than I can pee. Brad On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill Effros wrote: > Seems to me she was slated for a job in the State Department before > Clinton was selected Sec. of State. > > I guess Hillary gets to keep her at arm's length. > > Bill Effros > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: >> This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in >> the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. >> >> Brad >> >> -------------- >> >> Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide >> >> By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago >> >> WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who >> earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while >> working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign >> policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. >> >> Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be >> senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security >> Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel >> with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often >> accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. >> >> The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's >> position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet >> been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in >> the near future. >> >> White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. >> >> Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" >> comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after >> the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was >> included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the >> U.S. mission to the United Nations. >> >> At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture >> to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and >> Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week >> when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama >> announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the >> Middle East. >> >> Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, >> although the conversation was inaudible. >> >> Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global >> humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of >> the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she >> called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. >> Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's >> campaign. >> >> Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing >> to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. >> "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit >> she has put forward is really unattractive." >> >> A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her >> resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to >> her admiration for Clinton. >> >> She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely >> clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." >> >> Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to >> supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for >> contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to >> this kind of attack politics." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 07:38:16 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 06:38:16 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus In-Reply-To: <400985d70901291933t3989737fuf715dc8a7bebc01a@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> <400985d70901291933t3989737fuf715dc8a7bebc01a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300438t6d3a8206l673ff778825f7a29@mail.gmail.com> For those of you still unfamiliar with Michael Yon, he's the "Ernie Pyle" of our generation. On the heels of Samantha Power joining the Obama Administration and The One initiating dialogue with "I'madinnerjacket", this is a timely post by Yon..... Brad -------------- How Can the World Be Blind to Israel's Existential Threats? Posted By Michael Yon On January 30, 2009 @ 12:05 am I heard Benjamin Netanyahu, the person who could soon become Israel's new prime minister, speak this week at the Jerusalem Conference. The most pressing point that he talked about was that under no circumstances should Jerusalem be divided. Many believe that if Jerusalem were to divide, the terrorist group Hamas would set up a headquarters here, which would result in Iranian agents ? who also wish to see genocide against the Israelis ? setting up shop within the confines of Jerusalem. It is amazing to me, as an American who travels the world on a near-constant basis, that there is so much confusion over who the terrorists are. Hamas is a terrorist organization that condones and facilitates suicide bombings and will kill every Jew on the planet if they have the chance. Meanwhile, Israel is an energetic democracy with a vibrant press. I could sit right here in Jerusalem and write bad things about Israel and Jews, and nothing would happen. Maybe I wouldn't get invited somewhere or would be called an anti-Semite, but that would be it. Neither the Jews nor the Israelis would harm me, though they likely would write bad things about me. I came to Israel with no press accreditation and at the airport they knew that I was a writer. Yet they let me in and have allowed me to freely roam the country. Today I was in very close proximity to Mr. Netanyahu. Mr. Netanyahu talked about how, in this very hotel, Rehavam Ze'evi had been murdered just a few floors above our heads. The security seemed incredibly lax by American standards. Bernard Lewis and other extremely smart people were there. Israel is a free country that abides by the rule of law. By contrast, if a writer were to go to Gaza or Iran, for instance, and start writing bad words, he might wind up on the news, dead. Israel allows Christians and Arab Muslims to worship freely, while Hamas wants to see us all at the bottom of the sea. Hamas, supported by Iran, is clear about their goals: they want to wipe out Israel completely, utterly, with finality. But it's not just Israel that Hamas wants to kill; they want to kill all Jews everywhere. Complete genocide. And when Iran has the capacity to launch rockets over to Europe or the United States, one can count on it happening. If they can manage to hatch nuclear weapons, we could see Israeli cities annihilated, leaving Israelis with little choice other than to respond with nuclear weapons, which could leave millions dead. If Iran gets nuclear weapons, Iraq will want them, as will other nations who are threatened by Iran. I've lived in Europe for about six years, and it is easy to imagine Europe being engulfed in a massive religious and race war. America is relatively sedate on the racial front, but Europe could explode if a serious terrorism wave were to sweep through. It is simply astounding that many foreign governments do not see this for what it is. Good Muslims are murdered by Muslim extremists in probably dozens of countries, yet certain European governments insist that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Hamas and the democracy called Israel. At this conference, I hear incredulous Jews who are concerned that their soldiers and political leaders might be charged with war crimes and arrested if they travel to Europe. This is just one example of the racism that vexes Europe and keeps it behind where it could be. Imagine for a moment that Cuba were launching missiles at Florida. We would sink their navy, shoot down their air force, wipe out their army, and kill Castro. Yet thousands of rockets have been raining down on Israel, while many members of the international community demand that Israel do nothing. These rockets are advertised to be small and not much of a nuisance, but each one carries about 15 times more explosives than a hand grenade. Hamas favors launching the rockets when kids are going to or coming from school. Clearly they are trying to murder the children who are growing up under attack. The Israelis have proven time and again that they will choose peace if given a chance. Hamas, when given a chance, chooses war. I hear great concern that our new administration will turn its back on Israel, leaving Israelis to fend for themselves. But these feelings are not limited to the Israelis. Concern comes from numerous allies that the United States might go cold. I'm hearing these concerns from Iraqis, British, Lithuanians, and Israelis, to name a few. I can safely be called anti-war. But being anti-war does not mean we can hide our heads in the sand in regard to the proximate and growing threat from Iran. If you want to see World War III unfold, just sit quietly about Iran. Iran could be the opening chapter of an apocalyptic era. On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: > Bill, > > Here's some reading on Ms. Power for those not familiar with her - > > http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-hating-samantha-power-named-key.html > > Let's hope Hillary keeps her at arms length. I trust Hillary (did I > just say that?), I don't trust Samantha Power any further than I can > pee. > > Brad > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill Effros wrote: >> Seems to me she was slated for a job in the State Department before >> Clinton was selected Sec. of State. >> >> I guess Hillary gets to keep her at arm's length. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >>> This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in >>> the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> -------------- >>> >>> Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide >>> >>> By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago >>> >>> WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who >>> earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while >>> working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign >>> policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. >>> >>> Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be >>> senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security >>> Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel >>> with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often >>> accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. >>> >>> The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's >>> position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet >>> been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in >>> the near future. >>> >>> White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. >>> >>> Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" >>> comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after >>> the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was >>> included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the >>> U.S. mission to the United Nations. >>> >>> At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture >>> to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and >>> Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week >>> when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama >>> announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the >>> Middle East. >>> >>> Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, >>> although the conversation was inaudible. >>> >>> Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global >>> humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of >>> the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she >>> called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. >>> Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's >>> campaign. >>> >>> Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing >>> to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. >>> "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit >>> she has put forward is really unattractive." >>> >>> A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her >>> resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to >>> her admiration for Clinton. >>> >>> She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely >>> clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." >>> >>> Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to >>> supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for >>> contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to >>> this kind of attack politics." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 08:55:59 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:55:59 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork Message-ID: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. Here is his latest. Brad -------------- A Bleak Day By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 billion per hour of debate. Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama to have read the entire bill. For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in the United States roughly $75,000. We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly $300,000. There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens to us then? This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a responsible government itself. A bleak day. Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten ancestors. Letter to the Editor StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The American Spectator. From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:06:31 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:06:31 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300438t6d3a8206l673ff778825f7a29@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> <400985d70901291933t3989737fuf715dc8a7bebc01a@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901300438t6d3a8206l673ff778825f7a29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49830967.3020609@effros.com> Brad, This reply to worked properly. It may be that older threads have embedded wrong "reply to". Try replying to this. When I replied it worked right. B. Brad Haslett wrote: > For those of you still unfamiliar with Michael Yon, he's the "Ernie > Pyle" of our generation. On the heels of Samantha Power joining the > Obama Administration and The One initiating dialogue with > "I'madinnerjacket", this is a timely post by Yon..... Brad > > -------------- > > How Can the World Be Blind to Israel's Existential Threats? > > Posted By Michael Yon On January 30, 2009 @ 12:05 am > > I heard Benjamin Netanyahu, the person who could soon become Israel's > new prime minister, speak this week at the Jerusalem Conference. The > most pressing point that he talked about was that under no > circumstances should Jerusalem be divided. Many believe that if > Jerusalem were to divide, the terrorist group Hamas would set up a > headquarters here, which would result in Iranian agents ? who also > wish to see genocide against the Israelis ? setting up shop within the > confines of Jerusalem. > > It is amazing to me, as an American who travels the world on a > near-constant basis, that there is so much confusion over who the > terrorists are. Hamas is a terrorist organization that condones and > facilitates suicide bombings and will kill every Jew on the planet if > they have the chance. Meanwhile, Israel is an energetic democracy with > a vibrant press. I could sit right here in Jerusalem and write bad > things about Israel and Jews, and nothing would happen. Maybe I > wouldn't get invited somewhere or would be called an anti-Semite, but > that would be it. Neither the Jews nor the Israelis would harm me, > though they likely would write bad things about me. I came to Israel > with no press accreditation and at the airport they knew that I was a > writer. Yet they let me in and have allowed me to freely roam the > country. Today I was in very close proximity to Mr. Netanyahu. Mr. > Netanyahu talked about how, in this very hotel, Rehavam Ze'evi had > been murdered just a few floors above our heads. The security seemed > incredibly lax by American standards. Bernard Lewis and other > extremely smart people were there. > > Israel is a free country that abides by the rule of law. By contrast, > if a writer were to go to Gaza or Iran, for instance, and start > writing bad words, he might wind up on the news, dead. Israel allows > Christians and Arab Muslims to worship freely, while Hamas wants to > see us all at the bottom of the sea. Hamas, supported by Iran, is > clear about their goals: they want to wipe out Israel completely, > utterly, with finality. But it's not just Israel that Hamas wants to > kill; they want to kill all Jews everywhere. Complete genocide. > > And when Iran has the capacity to launch rockets over to Europe or the > United States, one can count on it happening. If they can manage to > hatch nuclear weapons, we could see Israeli cities annihilated, > leaving Israelis with little choice other than to respond with nuclear > weapons, which could leave millions dead. If Iran gets nuclear > weapons, Iraq will want them, as will other nations who are threatened > by Iran. I've lived in Europe for about six years, and it is easy to > imagine Europe being engulfed in a massive religious and race war. > America is relatively sedate on the racial front, but Europe could > explode if a serious terrorism wave were to sweep through. > > It is simply astounding that many foreign governments do not see this > for what it is. Good Muslims are murdered by Muslim extremists in > probably dozens of countries, yet certain European governments insist > that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Hamas and the > democracy called Israel. At this conference, I hear incredulous Jews > who are concerned that their soldiers and political leaders might be > charged with war crimes and arrested if they travel to Europe. This is > just one example of the racism that vexes Europe and keeps it behind > where it could be. Imagine for a moment that Cuba were launching > missiles at Florida. We would sink their navy, shoot down their air > force, wipe out their army, and kill Castro. Yet thousands of rockets > have been raining down on Israel, while many members of the > international community demand that Israel do nothing. These rockets > are advertised to be small and not much of a nuisance, but each one > carries about 15 times more explosives than a hand grenade. Hamas > favors launching the rockets when kids are going to or coming from > school. Clearly they are trying to murder the children who are growing > up under attack. The Israelis have proven time and again that they > will choose peace if given a chance. Hamas, when given a chance, > chooses war. > > I hear great concern that our new administration will turn its back on > Israel, leaving Israelis to fend for themselves. But these feelings > are not limited to the Israelis. Concern comes from numerous allies > that the United States might go cold. I'm hearing these concerns from > Iraqis, British, Lithuanians, and Israelis, to name a few. > > I can safely be called anti-war. But being anti-war does not mean we > can hide our heads in the sand in regard to the proximate and growing > threat from Iran. If you want to see World War III unfold, just sit > quietly about Iran. Iran could be the opening chapter of an > apocalyptic era. > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> Here's some reading on Ms. Power for those not familiar with her - >> >> http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-hating-samantha-power-named-key.html >> >> Let's hope Hillary keeps her at arms length. I trust Hillary (did I >> just say that?), I don't trust Samantha Power any further than I can >> pee. >> >> Brad >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill Effros wrote: >> >>> Seems to me she was slated for a job in the State Department before >>> Clinton was selected Sec. of State. >>> >>> I guess Hillary gets to keep her at arm's length. >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> >>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>> >>>> This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in >>>> the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> -------------- >>>> >>>> Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide >>>> >>>> By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago >>>> >>>> WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who >>>> earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while >>>> working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign >>>> policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. >>>> >>>> Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be >>>> senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security >>>> Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel >>>> with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often >>>> accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. >>>> >>>> The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's >>>> position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet >>>> been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in >>>> the near future. >>>> >>>> White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. >>>> >>>> Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" >>>> comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after >>>> the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was >>>> included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the >>>> U.S. mission to the United Nations. >>>> >>>> At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture >>>> to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and >>>> Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week >>>> when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama >>>> announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the >>>> Middle East. >>>> >>>> Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, >>>> although the conversation was inaudible. >>>> >>>> Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global >>>> humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of >>>> the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she >>>> called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. >>>> Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's >>>> campaign. >>>> >>>> Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing >>>> to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. >>>> "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit >>>> she has put forward is really unattractive." >>>> >>>> A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her >>>> resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to >>>> her admiration for Clinton. >>>> >>>> She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely >>>> clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." >>>> >>>> Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to >>>> supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for >>>> contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to >>>> this kind of attack politics." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/c47747ce/attachment-0001.html From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 09:10:06 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:10:06 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus In-Reply-To: <49830967.3020609@effros.com> References: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> <400985d70901291933t3989737fuf715dc8a7bebc01a@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901300438t6d3a8206l673ff778825f7a29@mail.gmail.com> <49830967.3020609@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300610v5533b6a9wd353c23dc0304168@mail.gmail.com> Can you hear me now? On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad, > > This reply to worked properly. > > It may be that older threads have embedded wrong "reply to". > > Try replying to this. > > When I replied it worked right. > > B. > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > For those of you still unfamiliar with Michael Yon, he's the "Ernie > Pyle" of our generation. On the heels of Samantha Power joining the > Obama Administration and The One initiating dialogue with > "I'madinnerjacket", this is a timely post by Yon..... Brad > > -------------- > > How Can the World Be Blind to Israel's Existential Threats? > > Posted By Michael Yon On January 30, 2009 @ 12:05 am > > I heard Benjamin Netanyahu, the person who could soon become Israel's > new prime minister, speak this week at the Jerusalem Conference. The > most pressing point that he talked about was that under no > circumstances should Jerusalem be divided. Many believe that if > Jerusalem were to divide, the terrorist group Hamas would set up a > headquarters here, which would result in Iranian agents ? who also > wish to see genocide against the Israelis ? setting up shop within the > confines of Jerusalem. > > It is amazing to me, as an American who travels the world on a > near-constant basis, that there is so much confusion over who the > terrorists are. Hamas is a terrorist organization that condones and > facilitates suicide bombings and will kill every Jew on the planet if > they have the chance. Meanwhile, Israel is an energetic democracy with > a vibrant press. I could sit right here in Jerusalem and write bad > things about Israel and Jews, and nothing would happen. Maybe I > wouldn't get invited somewhere or would be called an anti-Semite, but > that would be it. Neither the Jews nor the Israelis would harm me, > though they likely would write bad things about me. I came to Israel > with no press accreditation and at the airport they knew that I was a > writer. Yet they let me in and have allowed me to freely roam the > country. Today I was in very close proximity to Mr. Netanyahu. Mr. > Netanyahu talked about how, in this very hotel, Rehavam Ze'evi had > been murdered just a few floors above our heads. The security seemed > incredibly lax by American standards. Bernard Lewis and other > extremely smart people were there. > > Israel is a free country that abides by the rule of law. By contrast, > if a writer were to go to Gaza or Iran, for instance, and start > writing bad words, he might wind up on the news, dead. Israel allows > Christians and Arab Muslims to worship freely, while Hamas wants to > see us all at the bottom of the sea. Hamas, supported by Iran, is > clear about their goals: they want to wipe out Israel completely, > utterly, with finality. But it's not just Israel that Hamas wants to > kill; they want to kill all Jews everywhere. Complete genocide. > > And when Iran has the capacity to launch rockets over to Europe or the > United States, one can count on it happening. If they can manage to > hatch nuclear weapons, we could see Israeli cities annihilated, > leaving Israelis with little choice other than to respond with nuclear > weapons, which could leave millions dead. If Iran gets nuclear > weapons, Iraq will want them, as will other nations who are threatened > by Iran. I've lived in Europe for about six years, and it is easy to > imagine Europe being engulfed in a massive religious and race war. > America is relatively sedate on the racial front, but Europe could > explode if a serious terrorism wave were to sweep through. > > It is simply astounding that many foreign governments do not see this > for what it is. Good Muslims are murdered by Muslim extremists in > probably dozens of countries, yet certain European governments insist > that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Hamas and the > democracy called Israel. At this conference, I hear incredulous Jews > who are concerned that their soldiers and political leaders might be > charged with war crimes and arrested if they travel to Europe. This is > just one example of the racism that vexes Europe and keeps it behind > where it could be. Imagine for a moment that Cuba were launching > missiles at Florida. We would sink their navy, shoot down their air > force, wipe out their army, and kill Castro. Yet thousands of rockets > have been raining down on Israel, while many members of the > international community demand that Israel do nothing. These rockets > are advertised to be small and not much of a nuisance, but each one > carries about 15 times more explosives than a hand grenade. Hamas > favors launching the rockets when kids are going to or coming from > school. Clearly they are trying to murder the children who are growing > up under attack. The Israelis have proven time and again that they > will choose peace if given a chance. Hamas, when given a chance, > chooses war. > > I hear great concern that our new administration will turn its back on > Israel, leaving Israelis to fend for themselves. But these feelings > are not limited to the Israelis. Concern comes from numerous allies > that the United States might go cold. I'm hearing these concerns from > Iraqis, British, Lithuanians, and Israelis, to name a few. > > I can safely be called anti-war. But being anti-war does not mean we > can hide our heads in the sand in regard to the proximate and growing > threat from Iran. If you want to see World War III unfold, just sit > quietly about Iran. Iran could be the opening chapter of an > apocalyptic era. > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: > > > Bill, > > Here's some reading on Ms. Power for those not familiar with her - > > http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-hating-samantha-power-named-key.html > > Let's hope Hillary keeps her at arms length. I trust Hillary (did I > just say that?), I don't trust Samantha Power any further than I can > pee. > > Brad > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill Effros wrote: > > > Seems to me she was slated for a job in the State Department before > Clinton was selected Sec. of State. > > I guess Hillary gets to keep her at arm's length. > > Bill Effros > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > > This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in > the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. > > Brad > > -------------- > > Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide > > By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago > > WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who > earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while > working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign > policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. > > Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be > senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security > Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel > with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often > accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. > > The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's > position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet > been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in > the near future. > > White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. > > Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" > comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after > the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was > included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the > U.S. mission to the United Nations. > > At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture > to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and > Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week > when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama > announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the > Middle East. > > Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, > although the conversation was inaudible. > > Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global > humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of > the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she > called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. > Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's > campaign. > > Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing > to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. > "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit > she has put forward is really unattractive." > > A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her > resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to > her admiration for Clinton. > > She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely > clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." > > Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to > supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for > contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to > this kind of attack politics." > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:16:28 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:16:28 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> Brad--Dead horse. My question is "Why does everyone keep throwing in the 'recession might be over' canard?" This country is going through a fundamental restructuring. I doubt we will ever go back to the days where everyone thought they would earn above average incomes. There will be a lot of flailing while people settle into a different standard of living than they thought the future would bring. Wealth is not being redistributed, it is simply being reduced for almost everyone. Bill Effros Brad Haslett wrote: > Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. > Here is his latest. > > Brad > > -------------- > > A Bleak Day > > By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM > > I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate > in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 > billion per hour of debate. > > Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. > > Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members > of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and > municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. > > This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven > days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one > member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, > it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama > to have read the entire bill. > > For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in > the United States roughly $75,000. > > We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing > through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly > $300,000. > > There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The > scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and > no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. > > Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the > trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be > spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. > > How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that > it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens > to us then? > > This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, > far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect > America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the > constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a > responsible government itself. A bleak day. > > Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days > stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where > truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten > ancestors. > > Letter to the Editor > StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook > > Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly > Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The > American Spectator. > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:17:25 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:17:25 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - The Coast Is Clear! Come Out From Under the Bus In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300610v5533b6a9wd353c23dc0304168@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901291853o7301ac01o36d405f2a1428507@mail.gmail.com> <49826E44.3050504@effros.com> <400985d70901291933t3989737fuf715dc8a7bebc01a@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901300438t6d3a8206l673ff778825f7a29@mail.gmail.com> <49830967.3020609@effros.com> <400985d70901300610v5533b6a9wd353c23dc0304168@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49830BF5.3010508@effros.com> Good. Lets assume that's the problem. I'm going to turn off the acknowledgments. B. Brad Haslett wrote: > Can you hear me now? > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> This reply to worked properly. >> >> It may be that older threads have embedded wrong "reply to". >> >> Try replying to this. >> >> When I replied it worked right. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> For those of you still unfamiliar with Michael Yon, he's the "Ernie >> Pyle" of our generation. On the heels of Samantha Power joining the >> Obama Administration and The One initiating dialogue with >> "I'madinnerjacket", this is a timely post by Yon..... Brad >> >> -------------- >> >> How Can the World Be Blind to Israel's Existential Threats? >> >> Posted By Michael Yon On January 30, 2009 @ 12:05 am >> >> I heard Benjamin Netanyahu, the person who could soon become Israel's >> new prime minister, speak this week at the Jerusalem Conference. The >> most pressing point that he talked about was that under no >> circumstances should Jerusalem be divided. Many believe that if >> Jerusalem were to divide, the terrorist group Hamas would set up a >> headquarters here, which would result in Iranian agents ? who also >> wish to see genocide against the Israelis ? setting up shop within the >> confines of Jerusalem. >> >> It is amazing to me, as an American who travels the world on a >> near-constant basis, that there is so much confusion over who the >> terrorists are. Hamas is a terrorist organization that condones and >> facilitates suicide bombings and will kill every Jew on the planet if >> they have the chance. Meanwhile, Israel is an energetic democracy with >> a vibrant press. I could sit right here in Jerusalem and write bad >> things about Israel and Jews, and nothing would happen. Maybe I >> wouldn't get invited somewhere or would be called an anti-Semite, but >> that would be it. Neither the Jews nor the Israelis would harm me, >> though they likely would write bad things about me. I came to Israel >> with no press accreditation and at the airport they knew that I was a >> writer. Yet they let me in and have allowed me to freely roam the >> country. Today I was in very close proximity to Mr. Netanyahu. Mr. >> Netanyahu talked about how, in this very hotel, Rehavam Ze'evi had >> been murdered just a few floors above our heads. The security seemed >> incredibly lax by American standards. Bernard Lewis and other >> extremely smart people were there. >> >> Israel is a free country that abides by the rule of law. By contrast, >> if a writer were to go to Gaza or Iran, for instance, and start >> writing bad words, he might wind up on the news, dead. Israel allows >> Christians and Arab Muslims to worship freely, while Hamas wants to >> see us all at the bottom of the sea. Hamas, supported by Iran, is >> clear about their goals: they want to wipe out Israel completely, >> utterly, with finality. But it's not just Israel that Hamas wants to >> kill; they want to kill all Jews everywhere. Complete genocide. >> >> And when Iran has the capacity to launch rockets over to Europe or the >> United States, one can count on it happening. If they can manage to >> hatch nuclear weapons, we could see Israeli cities annihilated, >> leaving Israelis with little choice other than to respond with nuclear >> weapons, which could leave millions dead. If Iran gets nuclear >> weapons, Iraq will want them, as will other nations who are threatened >> by Iran. I've lived in Europe for about six years, and it is easy to >> imagine Europe being engulfed in a massive religious and race war. >> America is relatively sedate on the racial front, but Europe could >> explode if a serious terrorism wave were to sweep through. >> >> It is simply astounding that many foreign governments do not see this >> for what it is. Good Muslims are murdered by Muslim extremists in >> probably dozens of countries, yet certain European governments insist >> that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Hamas and the >> democracy called Israel. At this conference, I hear incredulous Jews >> who are concerned that their soldiers and political leaders might be >> charged with war crimes and arrested if they travel to Europe. This is >> just one example of the racism that vexes Europe and keeps it behind >> where it could be. Imagine for a moment that Cuba were launching >> missiles at Florida. We would sink their navy, shoot down their air >> force, wipe out their army, and kill Castro. Yet thousands of rockets >> have been raining down on Israel, while many members of the >> international community demand that Israel do nothing. These rockets >> are advertised to be small and not much of a nuisance, but each one >> carries about 15 times more explosives than a hand grenade. Hamas >> favors launching the rockets when kids are going to or coming from >> school. Clearly they are trying to murder the children who are growing >> up under attack. The Israelis have proven time and again that they >> will choose peace if given a chance. Hamas, when given a chance, >> chooses war. >> >> I hear great concern that our new administration will turn its back on >> Israel, leaving Israelis to fend for themselves. But these feelings >> are not limited to the Israelis. Concern comes from numerous allies >> that the United States might go cold. I'm hearing these concerns from >> Iraqis, British, Lithuanians, and Israelis, to name a few. >> >> I can safely be called anti-war. But being anti-war does not mean we >> can hide our heads in the sand in regard to the proximate and growing >> threat from Iran. If you want to see World War III unfold, just sit >> quietly about Iran. Iran could be the opening chapter of an >> apocalyptic era. >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> >> Bill, >> >> Here's some reading on Ms. Power for those not familiar with her - >> >> http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-hating-samantha-power-named-key.html >> >> Let's hope Hillary keeps her at arms length. I trust Hillary (did I >> just say that?), I don't trust Samantha Power any further than I can >> pee. >> >> Brad >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Bill Effros wrote: >> >> >> Seems to me she was slated for a job in the State Department before >> Clinton was selected Sec. of State. >> >> I guess Hillary gets to keep her at arm's length. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> >> This didn't take long. How long till Ayers and Rev. Wright sleep in >> the Lincoln Bedroom? I warned you about this piece of slime. >> >> Brad >> >> -------------- >> >> Professor who slammed Clinton will be Obama aide >> >> By MATTHEW LEE ? 3 hours ago >> >> WASHINGTON (AP) ? Samantha Power, the Harvard University professor who >> earned notoriety for calling Hillary Rodham Clinton a "monster" while >> working to elect Barack Obama president, will take a senior foreign >> policy job at the White House, The Associated Press has learned. >> >> Officials familiar with the decision say Obama has tapped Power to be >> senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security >> Council, a job that will require close contact and potential travel >> with Clinton, who is now secretary of state. NSC staffers often >> accompany the secretary of state on foreign trips. >> >> The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Power's >> position, as well as that of other senior NSC positions, have not yet >> been announced. One official said the announcements would be made in >> the near future. >> >> White House officials would not provide details of Power's new role. >> >> Power was an early and ardent Obama supporter until the "monster" >> comment forced her off his campaign, but she was rehabilitated after >> the election when she made a gesture to apologize to Clinton and was >> included in the transition teams for both the State Department and the >> U.S. mission to the United Nations. >> >> At the time, an official close to the transition said Power's "gesture >> to bury the hatchet" with Clinton had been well-received. Power and >> Clinton have met at least once since Clinton's confirmation last week >> when they both appeared at a State Department ceremony at which Obama >> announced the appointment of special envoys to South Asia and the >> Middle East. >> >> Reporters at the event saw Power and Clinton chat briefly at the end, >> although the conversation was inaudible. >> >> Power, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who has specialized in global >> humanitarian issues, made headlines last March during the height of >> the fierce fight for the Democratic presidential nomination when she >> called Clinton "a monster" in an interview with a Scottish newspaper. >> Her remarks set off angry exchanges about the tenor of Obama's >> campaign. >> >> Power told the Scotsman newspaper that Clinton would stop at nothing >> to defeat Obama. "She is a monster, too," Power said in the interview. >> "She is stooping to anything." Power added that "the amount of deceit >> she has put forward is really unattractive." >> >> A few hours after her comments were published, Power announced her >> resignation, saying the remarks were inexcusable and contradictory to >> her admiration for Clinton. >> >> She said Obama had rebuked her for the comment and "made it absolutely >> clear that we just couldn't make comments like this in his campaign." >> >> Clinton's campaign seized on the remark, sending an e-mail to >> supporters telling them about the "monster" comment and asking for >> contributions to "show the Obama campaign that there is a price to >> this kind of attack politics." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/677039a0/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:30:06 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:30:06 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Administration: Acknowledgment Off Message-ID: <49830EEE.2090805@effros.com> I've turned off the list acknowledgment for everyone currently on the list, and new members will start with acknowledgment off. Anyone who wants to turn it back on can go to: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette Bill Effros List Administrator From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:33:47 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:33:47 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] List Mechanics: How to Use Filters Message-ID: <49830FCB.8020708@effros.com> No one needs to see any email from this list they don't want to see. Everyone's email program has a filtering mechanism that will take selected email out of the InBox and deposit it into the Trash folder, or any other designated folder. I use Thunderbird, (formerly Eudora) which is available for Windows; Mac; and Linux, so that is the filtering system I will explain. I am sure most other programs use a very similar filtering technique. Starting from your Inbox, Select Tools/Message Filters. (Don't start from composing an email or anywhere else--you'll get a different set of options when you click on "Tools".) This will open a "Message Filters" box. Click "New" to create a new Message Filter. This will open a box that is fairly self explanatory, but I will walk you through one. Let's say you don't ever want to hear anything I've got to say on this list ever again. First name the filter so you can find it back if you ever need to do so. Let's name this filter "I Hate Effros". Next, Click the button that says "Match Any of the Following". Then press the drop down buttons to define parameters. In this case, select "From" in the far left button. "Contains" in the middle button. Type in "Effros" (no quotation marks) in the right button. or "Subject" "Contains" "Politics:" -- you won't get any politics. etc. Now go to the box below and define the action you want taken every time the parameters are met as set above: "Move Message To" "Trash" "Delete Message" etc. That's really all there is to it. If you only want sailing related material, filter out Politics: and Jokes: If you only want to read what certain people have to say you can either filter them in, or filter everyone else out. Everyone has all the tools at hand to be able to make this list work for them the way they want it to work without restricting the activities of anyone else or leaving the list. Nobody has to kick anyone else off the list to enforce their own censorship code. Bill Effros List Administrator From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:37:09 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] We Can't Spend Our Way out of This Quagmire -- Posted by Brad Message-ID: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> We Can't Spend Our Way out of This Quagmire by Lawrence H. White and David C. Rose David C. Rose is a Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-St. Louis. Lawrence H. White is the F.A. Hayek Professor of Economic History at the University of Missouri-St. Louis and an Adjunct Scholar of the Cato Institute. Added to cato.org on January 21, 2009 This article appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (http://www.stltoday.com/) on January 21, 2009. E-MAIL PAGE (https://secure.cato.org/cgi-bin/emailurl) CITE THIS Sans Serif Serif The cause of the economic crisis was not the collapse of the secondary mortgage market, policies aimed at increasing home ownership or the rise of exotic financial instruments. These factors affected the nature of the crisis, but the ultimate cause was the bursting of a real estate bubble made possible by excessive money growth. Abundant money and lower interest rates spur buying, pushing up prices. Since the supply of housing is relatively inflexible, housing prices rise quickly. Beginning in 2001, rising house prices and a rallying stock market increased homeowners' perceived net worth. People believed they didn't have to save as much for retirement or for their children's college education. And they could borrow more against their increased home equity, allowing them to buy more goods, services, stocks and real estate. Credit-fueled spending reinforced the rising prices of everything, but especially real estate and stocks. David C. Rose is a Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-St. Louis. Lawrence H. White (http://www.cato.org/people/lawrence-white) is the F.A. Hayek Professor of Economic History at the University of Missouri-St. Louis and an Adjunct Scholar of the Cato Institute. More by Lawrence H. White (http://www.cato.org/people/lawrence-white) But the increase in real estate prices and the increased spending it supported were a fantasy. The economy's ability to produce real goods and services is determined by the amount of plant and equipment, the number of workers, the supply of raw materials, and so on. We inevitably moved into a period of general inflation, so the Fed eventually had to reign in its easy money policy. Borrowing became more expensive, so people scaled back their spending or began selling assets to sustain it. Either response puts downward pressure on the prices of real estate and stocks, so prices that everyone counted on to rise forever began falling. The bear stampede was on. In 2001, the Federal Reserve began expanding the money supply. Year-over-year growth rose briefly above 10 percent and remained above 8 percent into the second half of 2003. The effect on interest rates was immediate; the Fed funds rate that began 2001 at 6.25 percent ended that same year at 1.75 percent. It fell further in 2002 and 2003, reaching a record low of 1 percent in mid-2003. But if the Fed hadn't increased the money supply from 2002 to 2006, increased demand for credit resulting from deficit spending and the increased demand for real estate would have pushed up interest rates. This would have discouraged borrowing. Rising interest rates would have thwarted the process by which an increase in borrowing by the government and by the public artificially inflates asset prices, begetting even more borrowing. Most economists, government officials and politicians continue to believe the standard Keynesian explanation for recessions: Recessions are caused by consumers and firms becoming "spooked" for no meaningful reason, so consumption and investment spending falls below normal levels. This reduces demand for goods and services, which reduces employment, which reduces spending even further, and so on. Since the level of spending before the "spooking" was presumed to be sustainable, the solution to the problem is simple: Increase spending to where it had been during the boom. You can't solve an excessive spending problem by spending more. We are making the crisis worse. In reality, excessive money growth drove asset prices up and drove interest rates down, making people feel richer than they really were and lowering the cost of borrowing money to facilitate more spending. Since the level of spending before the period of excessive money growth was just sustainable, the resulting level of consumption and business investment spending was unsustainable. The solution is to allow asset prices to fall to levels that accurately reflect what our economy can produce. This will make it clear to people that they are not as rich as they thought two years ago and thereby return spending to sustainable levels. Still, virtually everyone agrees that we need to further stimulate the economy even though current attempts to solve our crisis by increasing spending is exactly the wrong thing to do. No one wants to bear the political cost for appearing to be uncaring by favoring a policy of "doing nothing." Out of political cowardice, the federal government is attempting to produce a solution that is penny-wise and pound foolish. You can't solve an excessive spending problem by spending more. We are making the crisis worse. We have been down this road before. Most recessions start with the bursting of bubbles that grew large because of excessive money growth. But again and again, we presume a Keynesian cause and a Keynesian cure. Our recent stock market and housing market crashes can prove to be the start of a sound and rapid recovery ? if we will have the courage to let it be so. From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 09:43:08 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:43:08 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork In-Reply-To: <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> References: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300643n578dadb4u47da502dd30b2428@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Agreed - both on the dead horse and the restructuring. I'll refer once again to the link I posted on the other thread - http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9901 Assets were over-inflated and spending was based on borrowed money (based on over-inflated assets), repeat as necessary. The fundamental truth is that assets, primarily real estate, are going to have to seek their proper level (the stock market has already done that, don't ask how I know). Consumer borrowing has to remain within reasonable limits, a task that has already pretty much been accomplished by the declining home equity values. Banks were hugely over leveraged. Banking is supposed to be a dull business. It needs to be dull again. This recession/depression/re-structuring/correction, whatever you want to call it, will be long and deep. Rahm Emanual is on record saying, "never let a crisis go to waste". What we're witnessing is not an attempt to "stimulate" the economy buy a hard tack left by the Pelosi-Reid-Obama triad. The rush to pass this bill isn't about economics but politics. There's so much bad social engineering in this bill it's hard to decide where to begin. Here's just one: the Clinton Administration's Welfare Reform Act will be completely gutted by this bill. Under the new terms, the only limits to welfare will be the generosity (and the ability to borrow) of the US Treasury. I just sent off e-mails to my Senators Alexander and Corker. I'm following it up by mailing them two golf balls each - you know, just in case they "need a pair". Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad--Dead horse. > > My question is "Why does everyone keep throwing in the 'recession might > be over' canard?" > > This country is going through a fundamental restructuring. > > I doubt we will ever go back to the days where everyone thought they > would earn above average incomes. > > There will be a lot of flailing while people settle into a different > standard of living than they thought the future would bring. > > Wealth is not being redistributed, it is simply being reduced for almost > everyone. > > Bill Effros > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: >> Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. >> Here is his latest. >> >> Brad >> >> -------------- >> >> A Bleak Day >> >> By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM >> >> I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate >> in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 >> billion per hour of debate. >> >> Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. >> >> Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members >> of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and >> municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. >> >> This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven >> days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one >> member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, >> it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama >> to have read the entire bill. >> >> For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in >> the United States roughly $75,000. >> >> We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing >> through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly >> $300,000. >> >> There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The >> scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and >> no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. >> >> Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the >> trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be >> spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. >> >> How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that >> it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens >> to us then? >> >> This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, >> far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect >> America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the >> constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a >> responsible government itself. A bleak day. >> >> Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days >> stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where >> truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten >> ancestors. >> >> Letter to the Editor >> StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook >> >> Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly >> Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The >> American Spectator. >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 09:52:40 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:52:40 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> Message-ID: <49831438.10509@effros.com> Brad, We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always be a "greater fool" who would pay more. Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get out before everything crashed and burned. Few of us were right. So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" That question applies to everybody. I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful heads had prevailed early on. What about you? Bill Effros From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 10:05:01 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:05:01 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49831438.10509@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> Bill, The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are thinking the same thing. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad, > > We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. > > People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't > afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. > > People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, > but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. > > People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they > weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always > be a "greater fool" who would pay more. > > Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most > of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get > out before everything crashed and burned. > > Few of us were right. > > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if > you hadn't played along?" > > That question applies to everybody. > > I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having > played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful > heads had prevailed early on. What about you? > > Bill Effros > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 10:18:42 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:18:42 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork In-Reply-To: <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> References: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300718k4be7c84brade9d10fdb6f9618@mail.gmail.com> More bad "stuff" in the so-called Stimulus Bill. Remember, it was the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif under Hoover that accelerated us into the Great Depression. Obama is owned by the unions and this is the first of many "bones" he's throwing their way. The restraint of trade provisions in this bill are the same as Smoot-Hawley. Our biggest creditors are China, Japan, and Great Britain. What's going to happen when they pick-up their bat, and ball, and glove and leave the field? The One is totally clueless - I'm not just saying that as a partisan, this is scary shit! His wife has him by the balls at home and Nancy has his balls at the office. Is there anyone out there with any sanity? Hello! Anyone? Brad ---------------- US-EU trade war looms as Barack Obama bill urges 'Buy American' The prospect of a trade war between the US and Europe is looming after "Buy American" provisions were added to President Barack Obama's $820 billion (?573 billion) stimulus package. By Alex Spillius in Washington Last Updated: 12:27AM GMT 30 Jan 2009 The EU trade commissioner vowed to fight back after the bill passed in the House of Representatives late on Wednesday included a ban on most purchases of foreign steel and iron used in infrastructure projects. The Senate's version of the legislation, which will be debated early next week, goes even further, requiring that any projects related to the stimulus use only American-made equipment and goods. The inclusion of protectionist measures has quickly raised hackles in Europe. Catherine Ashton, the EU trade commissioner, said: "We are looking at the situation. The one thing we can be absolutely certain about, is if a bill is passed which prohibits the sale or purchase of European goods on American territory, that is something we will not stand idly by and ignore." Despite the parlous state of the US economy, some major American firms, including General Electric, are also opposed to the Buy American stipulations, fearing reprisals from overseas and further damage to the global economy. Bill Lane, government affairs director for Caterpillar, which has just laid off nearly a fifth of its 112,000 work force and is the tenth largest US investor in Britain, warned it was a dangerous step. He said: "We are the first to recognise that if the US embraces Buy American then the whole notion of buying national will mestastasize and limit our ability to take part in overseas projects. "We are students of history. A major reason a very deep recession turned into the Great Depression was the fact that countries turned inward." Countries in Europe and Asia are planning major injections of cash into infrastructure to boost their economies, and US firms don't want to be left out of potentially lucrative contracts. "We would be a primary beneficiary of any type of infrastructure project in the US, but at the same time we are one of the country's largest exporters," he added. Some industrial giants also question whether the Buy American laws would contravene US obligations reached in various World Trade Organisation agreements. They also point to the 1930s as a lesson in the perils of protectionism. Congress passed the Buy American Act in 1933, allowing the government to favour US products for government contracts. Restrictions were eased in 1982, but the plans currently working their way through Congress would bring the new law close to its forebear of 75 years ago. Foreign steel would only be allowed if using US steel drove up the cost of a project by more than 25 per cent, while the bill passed on Wednesday required that the Transportation and Security Administration use American-made uniforms. Supporters of Buy American argue that tighter measures are required to protect American jobs and point out that the US steel industry is losing out to Chinese imports subsidised by Beijing. "As we are losing jobs in record numbers, we obviously need to devote these funds to direct creation of American jobs," said Sherrod Brown, a senator from Ohio, part of the struggling industrial heartland. Unemployment in his state has risen to 7.6 per cent, up from 5.8 per cent in December 2007. "To do that, we must ensure that federal funds are used to buy American products and to help promote manufacturing in our country. Ultimately I want taxpayers to know where their dollars are being spent. Are they being spent on American products or products coming from Germany or Mexico?" Mr Obama has sent mixed signals on free trade throughout his campaign and the early days of his presidency. He has argued that the North American Free Trade should be recalibrated in favour of American workers, but has stressed the need for a co-operative international approach to the economic crisis. Though fellow Democrats in the house and senate drafted their versions of the stimulus bill, the new president and his advisers had major input and influence over the contents. The bill failed to win a single Republican vote in the house, despite a major charm offensive by Mr Obama, which included a visit to Congress and an invitation to Congressional leaders to drinks at the White House. It passed thanks to the Democrats' healthy majority, but the senate bill could see a tougher fight. Each rendering of the bill will be merged at a process known as conference, before being returned to both chambers for a new vote. The president has asked that a final bill be presented to him by February 13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4389597/US-EU-trade-war-looms-as-Barack-Obama-bill-urges-Buy-American.html Related Content On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad--Dead horse. > > My question is "Why does everyone keep throwing in the 'recession might > be over' canard?" > > This country is going through a fundamental restructuring. > > I doubt we will ever go back to the days where everyone thought they > would earn above average incomes. > > There will be a lot of flailing while people settle into a different > standard of living than they thought the future would bring. > > Wealth is not being redistributed, it is simply being reduced for almost > everyone. > > Bill Effros > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: >> Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. >> Here is his latest. >> >> Brad >> >> -------------- >> >> A Bleak Day >> >> By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM >> >> I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate >> in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 >> billion per hour of debate. >> >> Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. >> >> Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members >> of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and >> municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. >> >> This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven >> days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one >> member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, >> it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama >> to have read the entire bill. >> >> For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in >> the United States roughly $75,000. >> >> We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing >> through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly >> $300,000. >> >> There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The >> scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and >> no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. >> >> Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the >> trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be >> spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. >> >> How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that >> it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens >> to us then? >> >> This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, >> far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect >> America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the >> constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a >> responsible government itself. A bleak day. >> >> Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days >> stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where >> truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten >> ancestors. >> >> Letter to the Editor >> StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook >> >> Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly >> Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The >> American Spectator. >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From sanderico1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 10:38:28 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:38:28 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49831438.10509@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> Message-ID: <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> Bill, Brad, > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if > you hadn't played along?" > Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. People acted like I was friggin' crazy. In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder in the country. So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than most. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Bill Effros wrote: > Brad, > > We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. > > People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't > afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. > > People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, > but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. > > People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they > weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always > be a "greater fool" who would pay more. > > Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most > of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get > out before everything crashed and burned. > > Few of us were right. > > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if > you hadn't played along?" > > That question applies to everybody. > > I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having > played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful > heads had prevailed early on. What about you? > > Bill Effros > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 11:00:08 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:00:08 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300800i635d25f3k86fe6a8d290e4f12@mail.gmail.com> Rik, Why didn't you smack me up the side of head during that period? I knew the real estate bubble would pop, but thought the market would simply "correct", not take a nose-dive. I'm still buying - the thought process being that things are now "cheap". The other reason is, what the hell else is there to invest in that's liquid? Bill will say real estate (although not liquid) and he's right. We're keeping our options open and eyes on the horizon. Things have up-ticked a bit for us on the coast in just the last month. That's purely a local thing and partly because so many of our competitors have gone bankrupt. During the latter part of 2007 and especially during 2008 with oil at $140+ a barrel we didn't do squat, and my brother lived at the subsistence level. Once a quarter I'd say, "Gary, we can pull the plug anytime you don't think this is worth your while". He'd reply, "I'm fine, it'll turn around Little Brother". He was right. Americans are an impatient bunch. The race nearly always goes to the hare. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Rik Sandberg wrote: > Bill, Brad, > >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >> you hadn't played along?" >> > Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... > > I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to > the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At > that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if > they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in > already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by > 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying > these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. > People acted like I was friggin' crazy. > > In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost > completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks > compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told > everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the > safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the > stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and > again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. > > However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus > interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming > have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, > while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in > both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems > I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the > "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away > by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as > it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder > in the country. > > So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than > most. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: >> Brad, >> >> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >> >> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >> >> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >> >> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >> >> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >> out before everything crashed and burned. >> >> Few of us were right. >> >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >> you hadn't played along?" >> >> That question applies to everybody. >> >> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 11:04:10 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498324FA.90309@effros.com> Brad, My question is completely politically unloaded. I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I would have been without it, although I'm not really sure. Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor market 40 years ago? Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset level, compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth in this country. Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were 40 years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, and thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than they had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than when they started. Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? B. Brad Haslett wrote: > Bill, > > The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I > didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan > statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total > monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" > paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My > 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain > during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. > > Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I > made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with > two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. > > "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" > > With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US > Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not > sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are > thinking the same thing. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >> >> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >> >> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >> >> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >> >> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >> out before everything crashed and burned. >> >> Few of us were right. >> >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >> you hadn't played along?" >> >> That question applies to everybody. >> >> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/d4205037/attachment.html From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 11:17:54 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:17:54 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300718k4be7c84brade9d10fdb6f9618@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> <400985d70901300718k4be7c84brade9d10fdb6f9618@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49832832.70709@effros.com> Brad, This stuff is dumb, no doubt about it. And it won't work. Just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. B. Brad Haslett wrote: > More bad "stuff" in the so-called Stimulus Bill. Remember, it was the > Smoot-Hawley Tarrif under Hoover that accelerated us into the Great > Depression. Obama is owned by the unions and this is the first of many > "bones" he's throwing their way. The restraint of trade provisions in > this bill are the same as Smoot-Hawley. Our biggest creditors are > China, Japan, and Great Britain. What's going to happen when they > pick-up their bat, and ball, and glove and leave the field? The One > is totally clueless - I'm not just saying that as a partisan, this is > scary shit! His wife has him by the balls at home and Nancy has his > balls at the office. Is there anyone out there with any sanity? > Hello! Anyone? > > Brad > > ---------------- > > US-EU trade war looms as Barack Obama bill urges 'Buy American' > > The prospect of a trade war between the US and Europe is looming after > "Buy American" provisions were added to President Barack Obama's $820 > billion (?573 billion) stimulus package. > > > By Alex Spillius in Washington > Last Updated: 12:27AM GMT 30 Jan 2009 > > > The EU trade commissioner vowed to fight back after the bill passed in > the House of Representatives late on Wednesday included a ban on most > purchases of foreign steel and iron used in infrastructure projects. > > The Senate's version of the legislation, which will be debated early > next week, goes even further, requiring that any projects related to > the stimulus use only American-made equipment and goods. > > The inclusion of protectionist measures has quickly raised hackles in Europe. > > Catherine Ashton, the EU trade commissioner, said: "We are looking at > the situation. The one thing we can be absolutely certain about, is if > a bill is passed which prohibits the sale or purchase of European > goods on American territory, that is something we will not stand idly > by and ignore." > > Despite the parlous state of the US economy, some major American > firms, including General Electric, are also opposed to the Buy > American stipulations, fearing reprisals from overseas and further > damage to the global economy. > > Bill Lane, government affairs director for Caterpillar, which has just > laid off nearly a fifth of its 112,000 work force and is the tenth > largest US investor in Britain, warned it was a dangerous step. > > He said: "We are the first to recognise that if the US embraces Buy > American then the whole notion of buying national will mestastasize > and limit our ability to take part in overseas projects. > > "We are students of history. A major reason a very deep recession > turned into the Great Depression was the fact that countries turned > inward." > > Countries in Europe and Asia are planning major injections of cash > into infrastructure to boost their economies, and US firms don't want > to be left out of potentially lucrative contracts. > > "We would be a primary beneficiary of any type of infrastructure > project in the US, but at the same time we are one of the country's > largest exporters," he added. > > Some industrial giants also question whether the Buy American laws > would contravene US obligations reached in various World Trade > Organisation agreements. > > They also point to the 1930s as a lesson in the perils of > protectionism. Congress passed the Buy American Act in 1933, allowing > the government to favour US products for government contracts. > Restrictions were eased in 1982, but the plans currently working their > way through Congress would bring the new law close to its forebear of > 75 years ago. > > Foreign steel would only be allowed if using US steel drove up the > cost of a project by more than 25 per cent, while the bill passed on > Wednesday required that the Transportation and Security Administration > use American-made uniforms. > > Supporters of Buy American argue that tighter measures are required to > protect American jobs and point out that the US steel industry is > losing out to Chinese imports subsidised by Beijing. > > "As we are losing jobs in record numbers, we obviously need to devote > these funds to direct creation of American jobs," said Sherrod Brown, > a senator from Ohio, part of the struggling industrial heartland. > > Unemployment in his state has risen to 7.6 per cent, up from 5.8 per > cent in December 2007. > > "To do that, we must ensure that federal funds are used to buy > American products and to help promote manufacturing in our country. > Ultimately I want taxpayers to know where their dollars are being > spent. Are they being spent on American products or products coming > from Germany or Mexico?" > > Mr Obama has sent mixed signals on free trade throughout his campaign > and the early days of his presidency. He has argued that the North > American Free Trade should be recalibrated in favour of American > workers, but has stressed the need for a co-operative international > approach to the economic crisis. > > Though fellow Democrats in the house and senate drafted their versions > of the stimulus bill, the new president and his advisers had major > input and influence over the contents. > > The bill failed to win a single Republican vote in the house, despite > a major charm offensive by Mr Obama, which included a visit to > Congress and an invitation to Congressional leaders to drinks at the > White House. > > It passed thanks to the Democrats' healthy majority, but the senate > bill could see a tougher fight. Each rendering of the bill will be > merged at a process known as conference, before being returned to both > chambers for a new vote. The president has asked that a final bill be > presented to him by February 13. > > > > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4389597/US-EU-trade-war-looms-as-Barack-Obama-bill-urges-Buy-American.html > Related Content > > > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > >> Brad--Dead horse. >> >> My question is "Why does everyone keep throwing in the 'recession might >> be over' canard?" >> >> This country is going through a fundamental restructuring. >> >> I doubt we will ever go back to the days where everyone thought they >> would earn above average incomes. >> >> There will be a lot of flailing while people settle into a different >> standard of living than they thought the future would bring. >> >> Wealth is not being redistributed, it is simply being reduced for almost >> everyone. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >>> Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. >>> Here is his latest. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> -------------- >>> >>> A Bleak Day >>> >>> By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM >>> >>> I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate >>> in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 >>> billion per hour of debate. >>> >>> Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. >>> >>> Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members >>> of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and >>> municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. >>> >>> This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven >>> days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one >>> member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, >>> it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama >>> to have read the entire bill. >>> >>> For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in >>> the United States roughly $75,000. >>> >>> We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing >>> through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly >>> $300,000. >>> >>> There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The >>> scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and >>> no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. >>> >>> Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the >>> trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be >>> spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. >>> >>> How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that >>> it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens >>> to us then? >>> >>> This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, >>> far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect >>> America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the >>> constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a >>> responsible government itself. A bleak day. >>> >>> Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days >>> stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where >>> truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten >>> ancestors. >>> >>> Letter to the Editor >>> StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook >>> >>> Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly >>> Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The >>> American Spectator. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/8fdeef66/attachment-0001.html From sanderico1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 11:24:05 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:24:05 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300800i635d25f3k86fe6a8d290e4f12@mail.gmail.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> <400985d70901300800i635d25f3k86fe6a8d290e4f12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498329A5.5010503@gmail.com> Brad, > Why didn't you smack me up the side of head Ha ha .... Yeah, I wanted to :-) I figured the stock downturn would be quick and nasty because there was so much borrowed money involved. Losing money against borrowed money, as I know you understand, gets ugly real fast. Trouble I had was not being able to put forth a convincing enough argument that folks could get their head around. Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference even if I could. It's just like now with this gov't spending. I can squeal at the top of my lungs, but anybody who sees what they perceive as a free lunch coming their way at someone else's expense isn't gonna listen anyway. There is always at least some "local flavor" to anything economic. It's good to hear that your gulf interests are coming around. We went through that many times in our trucking business. We'd be busy as heck at times, but not really making money because there were too many people all trying to haul the same freight. After a bit, the poor operators would go broke and get out, eliminating the glut. Then you could go back to having some control over your pricing. That's where you are now. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Brad Haslett wrote: > Rik, > > Why didn't you smack me up the side of head during that period? I knew > the real estate bubble would pop, but thought the market would simply > "correct", not take a nose-dive. I'm still buying - the thought > process being that things are now "cheap". The other reason is, what > the hell else is there to invest in that's liquid? Bill will say real > estate (although not liquid) and he's right. We're keeping our > options open and eyes on the horizon. > > Things have up-ticked a bit for us on the coast in just the last > month. That's purely a local thing and partly because so many of our > competitors have gone bankrupt. During the latter part of 2007 and > especially during 2008 with oil at $140+ a barrel we didn't do squat, > and my brother lived at the subsistence level. Once a quarter I'd > say, "Gary, we can pull the plug anytime you don't think this is worth > your while". He'd reply, "I'm fine, it'll turn around Little > Brother". He was right. > > Americans are an impatient bunch. The race nearly always goes to the hare. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Rik Sandberg wrote: > >> Bill, Brad, >> >> >>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>> you hadn't played along?" >>> >>> >> Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... >> >> I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to >> the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At >> that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if >> they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in >> already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by >> 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying >> these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. >> People acted like I was friggin' crazy. >> >> In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost >> completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks >> compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told >> everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the >> safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the >> stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and >> again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. >> >> However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus >> interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming >> have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, >> while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in >> both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems >> I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the >> "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away >> by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as >> it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder >> in the country. >> >> So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than >> most. >> >> Rik >> >> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >> >> >> >> Bill Effros wrote: >> >>> Brad, >>> >>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>> >>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>> >>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>> >>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>> >>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>> >>> Few of us were right. >>> >>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>> you hadn't played along?" >>> >>> That question applies to everybody. >>> >>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 11:28:37 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:28:37 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49832AB5.3020208@effros.com> Rik, As I remember your history you are much better off now than you were when you entered the labor force. I know just how you felt about trying to defend yourself from friends who said you were raining on their parade. Same thing happened to me. However, I put my money where my mouth was, also. And I came out of this better than they. So, the illusion worked for both of us because we saw through it early enough to benefit from the real growth and we did not believe the inflated growth would provide real benefits in perpetuity. What I am wondering is whether we did better than we would have done had the national Ponzi scheme not been so successful among our peers. In all Ponzi schemes, those who cash out early enough can do extremely well. Most people would prefer to lose their tax money in a lottery where they have a remote chance of getting rich, than pay less taxes with no chance of getting rich. I suspect that, given the opportunity, most people would sooner get involved with another National Ponzi scheme than work their way out of this problem. B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Bill, Brad, > > >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >> you hadn't played along?" >> >> > Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... > > I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to > the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At > that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if > they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in > already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by > 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying > these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. > People acted like I was friggin' crazy. > > In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost > completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks > compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told > everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the > safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the > stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and > again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. > > However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus > interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming > have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, > while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in > both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems > I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the > "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away > by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as > it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder > in the country. > > So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than > most. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >> >> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >> >> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >> >> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >> >> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >> out before everything crashed and burned. >> >> Few of us were right. >> >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >> you hadn't played along?" >> >> That question applies to everybody. >> >> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/743016c1/attachment.html From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 11:31:45 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:31:45 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <498324FA.90309@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> <498324FA.90309@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a major PITA! We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the governments responsibility to do so. My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. It's all relative. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad, > > My question is completely politically unloaded. > > I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I would > have been without it, although I'm not really sure. > > Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor market > 40 years ago? > > Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset level, > compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. > > Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth in > this country. > > Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. > > But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were 40 > years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, and > thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than they > had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than when > they started. > > Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? > > B. > > > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > Bill, > > The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I > didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan > statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total > monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" > paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My > 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain > during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. > > Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I > made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with > two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. > > "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played > along?" > > With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US > Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not > sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are > thinking the same thing. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > > > Brad, > > We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. > > People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't > afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. > > People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, > but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. > > People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they > weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always > be a "greater fool" who would pay more. > > Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most > of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get > out before everything crashed and burned. > > Few of us were right. > > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if > you hadn't played along?" > > That question applies to everybody. > > I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having > played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful > heads had prevailed early on. What about you? > > Bill Effros > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From sanderico1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 11:58:13 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:58:13 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49832AB5.3020208@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> <49832AB5.3020208@effros.com> Message-ID: <498331A5.1030304@gmail.com> Bill, As opposed to "when I entered the labor force", absolutely I am better off. Relative to 3 years ago though, not really. As I said, I have been very fortunate to have been able to see these things coming at me when it seemed others were blind to them. Of course when one considers whether he is better off or not one may want to consider the investment in time and effort one put in to get to this point. People like to point out how lucky I have been. My usual retort is luck had nothing to do with it, the harder I worked, the luckier I looked. I sat and estimated once how my time/effort would compare to the average 9 to 5'er. I found that most people would still have to be working well into their eighties to have spent as much time at least trying to be productive as I have over the course of my life. At the same time, I lived well below my means and used that savings to reinvest in my business(s). If there is any "fairness" in the world, I would hope that I am at least somewhat better off than the average guy. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Bill Effros wrote: > Rik, > > As I remember your history you are much better off now than you were > when you entered the labor force. > > I know just how you felt about trying to defend yourself from friends > who said you were raining on their parade. Same thing happened to me. > > However, I put my money where my mouth was, also. And I came out of > this better than they. > > So, the illusion worked for both of us because we saw through it early > enough to benefit from the real growth and we did not believe the > inflated growth would provide real benefits in perpetuity. > > What I am wondering is whether we did better than we would have done > had the national Ponzi scheme not been so successful among our peers. > > In all Ponzi schemes, those who cash out early enough can do extremely > well. > > Most people would prefer to lose their tax money in a lottery where > they have a remote chance of getting rich, than pay less taxes with no > chance of getting rich. I suspect that, given the opportunity, most > people would sooner get involved with another National Ponzi scheme > than work their way out of this problem. > > B. > > > > Rik Sandberg wrote: >> Bill, Brad, >> >> >>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>> you hadn't played along?" >>> >>> >> Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... >> >> I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to >> the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At >> that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if >> they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in >> already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by >> 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying >> these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. >> People acted like I was friggin' crazy. >> >> In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost >> completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks >> compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told >> everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the >> safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the >> stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and >> again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. >> >> However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus >> interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming >> have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, >> while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in >> both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems >> I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the >> "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away >> by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as >> it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder >> in the country. >> >> So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than >> most. >> >> Rik >> >> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >> >> >> >> Bill Effros wrote: >> >>> Brad, >>> >>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>> >>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>> >>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>> >>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>> >>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>> >>> Few of us were right. >>> >>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>> you hadn't played along?" >>> >>> That question applies to everybody. >>> >>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 12:16:53 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:16:53 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> Brad, Quoting you: Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 11:31 AM > Bill, > > Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy > the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and > I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial > multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't > changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. > I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, > and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a > major PITA! > > We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. > But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the > governments responsibility to do so. > > My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend > the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his > second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering > he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. > He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes > at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans > and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is > whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be > kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your > way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he > interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. > > Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot > "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane > leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. > > It's all relative. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >> Brad, >> >> My question is completely politically unloaded. >> >> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I would >> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >> >> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >> market >> 40 years ago? >> >> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset level, >> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >> >> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth >> in >> this country. >> >> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >> >> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were 40 >> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, and >> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than >> they >> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than when >> they started. >> >> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I >> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain >> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >> >> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with >> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >> >> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played >> along?" >> >> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >> thinking the same thing. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >> >> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >> >> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >> >> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >> >> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >> out before everything crashed and burned. >> >> Few of us were right. >> >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >> you hadn't played along?" >> >> That question applies to everybody. >> >> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 12:36:48 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:36:48 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> <498324FA.90309@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> Mike, Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there anyway! Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Brad, > > Quoting you: > Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot > "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane > leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. > > How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 > 11:31 AM >> Bill, >> >> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >> major PITA! >> >> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >> governments responsibility to do so. >> >> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >> >> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >> >> It's all relative. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>> Brad, >>> >>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>> >>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I would >>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>> >>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>> market >>> 40 years ago? >>> >>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset level, >>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>> >>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth >>> in >>> this country. >>> >>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>> >>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were 40 >>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, and >>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than >>> they >>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than when >>> they started. >>> >>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I >>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain >>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>> >>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with >>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>> >>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played >>> along?" >>> >>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>> thinking the same thing. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>> >>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>> >>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>> >>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>> >>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>> >>> Few of us were right. >>> >>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>> you hadn't played along?" >>> >>> That question applies to everybody. >>> >>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 12:38:04 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:38:04 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat Message-ID: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball with it! It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at the same speed. It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and take off the boat.) I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up in series I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last season, maybe it will finally happen. Will keep you posted. B. From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 12:51:13 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:51:13 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <498331A5.1030304@gmail.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> <49832AB5.3020208@effros.com> <498331A5.1030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49833E11.4020207@effros.com> Rik, I did exactly the same things you did, with the same results. A lot of the people who have acquired and kept wealth did it simply by working longer and harder than other people. Lots of doctors work 80 hours a week. Why shouldn't they get twice as much pay as someone working 40 hours a week? What I'm wondering is whether most people entering the labor market today can do as well as we did no matter how hard they work. I think not. I think they will come out to roughly the same place as most people will be now. Was our generation lucky to get "the good years" even if they were an illusion? I suspect the thrill of the ride was enough to compensate most for the fact they will come out worse in the end, and I suspect most would get on that ride again if they could. But I think that ride has closed, and is not likely to come back for a long time. B. Rik Sandberg wrote: > Bill, > > As opposed to "when I entered the labor force", absolutely I am better > off. Relative to 3 years ago though, not really. As I said, I have been > very fortunate to have been able to see these things coming at me when > it seemed others were blind to them. > > Of course when one considers whether he is better off or not one may > want to consider the investment in time and effort one put in to get to > this point. People like to point out how lucky I have been. My usual > retort is luck had nothing to do with it, the harder I worked, the > luckier I looked. I sat and estimated once how my time/effort would > compare to the average 9 to 5'er. I found that most people would still > have to be working well into their eighties to have spent as much time > at least trying to be productive as I have over the course of my life. > At the same time, I lived well below my means and used that savings to > reinvest in my business(s). If there is any "fairness" in the world, I > would hope that I am at least somewhat better off than the average guy. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > >> Rik, >> >> As I remember your history you are much better off now than you were >> when you entered the labor force. >> >> I know just how you felt about trying to defend yourself from friends >> who said you were raining on their parade. Same thing happened to me. >> >> However, I put my money where my mouth was, also. And I came out of >> this better than they. >> >> So, the illusion worked for both of us because we saw through it early >> enough to benefit from the real growth and we did not believe the >> inflated growth would provide real benefits in perpetuity. >> >> What I am wondering is whether we did better than we would have done >> had the national Ponzi scheme not been so successful among our peers. >> >> In all Ponzi schemes, those who cash out early enough can do extremely >> well. >> >> Most people would prefer to lose their tax money in a lottery where >> they have a remote chance of getting rich, than pay less taxes with no >> chance of getting rich. I suspect that, given the opportunity, most >> people would sooner get involved with another National Ponzi scheme >> than work their way out of this problem. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Rik Sandberg wrote: >> >>> Bill, Brad, >>> >>> >>> >>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... >>> >>> I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to >>> the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At >>> that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if >>> they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in >>> already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by >>> 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying >>> these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. >>> People acted like I was friggin' crazy. >>> >>> In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost >>> completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks >>> compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told >>> everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the >>> safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the >>> stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and >>> again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. >>> >>> However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus >>> interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming >>> have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, >>> while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in >>> both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems >>> I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the >>> "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away >>> by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as >>> it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder >>> in the country. >>> >>> So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than >>> most. >>> >>> Rik >>> >>> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill Effros wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>> >>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>> >>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>> >>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>> >>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>> >>>> Few of us were right. >>>> >>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>> >>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>> >>>> Bill Effros >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/e67b8490/attachment-0001.html From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 12:51:57 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:51:57 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat In-Reply-To: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> References: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901300951q4b797717w53dfd99b72278d63@mail.gmail.com> Bill, What is the amperage draw on the motor? If you have the same miniature Honda genset as mine (EU1000) it will put out 10 amps DC continuously at 57 decibels. Is that enough to run the motor directly or do you need to connect the genset to the batteries to the motor? I'm guessing the gen-batt-motor setup is the optimal. I figured out a long time ago that my decision to "upgrade" to a bigger boat was a mistake. Twenty-two feet is optimal. What if you could replace the ballast with a battery stack? Inquiring minds want to know! Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 > years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily > repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. > > I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement > on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball > with it! > > It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any > stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for > hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at > the same speed. > > It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest > Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. > > The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my > mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put > the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric > motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else > suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor > lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a > most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a > "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and > take off the boat.) > > I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I > try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent > motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 > batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up > in series > > I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no > worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last > season, maybe it will finally happen. > > Will keep you posted. > > B. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From sanderico1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 13:09:27 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:09:27 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat In-Reply-To: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> References: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> Message-ID: <49834257.8050904@gmail.com> Bill, I have to admit to drooling over those Torqueedos .... the price is a bit off putting though. While I have nothing bad at all to say about the 9.9 Yamaha I have had on our Flicka since we have owned her, I have cursed it because it is so heavy. This year I bought a Tohatsu 6hp 4 stroke that weighs just about 1/2 of our old faithful Yamaha. I have to say, so far I am pretty happy with the new motor. We also have a Montgomery 15 which I picked up for almost nothing after we sold our R22. I have a 50# MinnKota Riptide (saltwater version) on her. It works very well for me ....mostly. I have found that if it's pretty tough out ... conditions the average "sane" guy shouldn't be out in anyway, it doesn't have enough power to turn upwind. I'm talkin' pretty windy here though, 20-25 knots+. I too have thought about putting the electric on our Flicka. Like you Bill, I too like to sail where I am going and live with the conditions mother nature deals at the time. But after seeing the results of big weather on the M-15, I am hesitant. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Bill Effros wrote: > My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 > years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily > repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. > > I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement > on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball > with it! > > It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any > stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for > hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at > the same speed. > > It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest > Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. > > The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my > mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put > the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric > motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else > suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor > lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a > most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a > "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and > take off the boat.) > > I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I > try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent > motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 > batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up > in series > > I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no > worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last > season, maybe it will finally happen. > > Will keep you posted. > > B. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 13:10:23 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:10:23 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brad, It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in heaven's name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's wanting what you've got." Then again, I am happy, but ... Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:36 PM > Mike, > > Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him > standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! > That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! > I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the > "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. > She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We > didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps > could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I > didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the > wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once > back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I > explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the > state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the > line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and > Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there > anyway! > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner > wrote: >> Brad, >> >> Quoting you: >> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >> >> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >> >> Mike >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >> 11:31 AM >>> Bill, >>> >>> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >>> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >>> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >>> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >>> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >>> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >>> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >>> major PITA! >>> >>> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >>> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >>> governments responsibility to do so. >>> >>> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >>> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >>> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >>> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >>> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >>> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >>> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >>> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >>> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >>> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >>> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >>> >>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>> >>> It's all relative. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>>> >>>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >>>> would >>>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>>> >>>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>>> market >>>> 40 years ago? >>>> >>>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >>>> level, >>>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>>> >>>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth >>>> in >>>> this country. >>>> >>>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>>> >>>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >>>> 40 >>>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >>>> and >>>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than >>>> they >>>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >>>> when >>>> they started. >>>> >>>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>>> >>>> B. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I >>>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain >>>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>>> >>>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with >>>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>>> >>>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played >>>> along?" >>>> >>>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>>> thinking the same thing. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>> >>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>> >>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >>>> off, >>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>> >>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >>>> always >>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>> >>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>> >>>> Few of us were right. >>>> >>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>> >>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >>>> thoughtful >>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>> >>>> Bill Effros >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 13:22:16 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49833E11.4020207@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> <49832AB5.3020208@effros.com> <498331A5.1030304@gmail.com> <49833E11.4020207@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901301022t5f5e857eg69a04656dcb2c930@mail.gmail.com> Bill, There's a thousand productive things I should be doing today other than solve the world's problems, "but what the hell", they will still be there when I'm in the mood. How did the "no dogs or Irish" get out of the Boston slums? How did the impoverished Jews get out of Lower East Manhattan? How did the Chinese who got cheated out of their boat fare back to China survive after building the railroads? Answer is - drum roll please - THEY WORKED THEIR ASSES OFF! We, the "Baby Boom" generation, have lived off an inheritance. Well, the trust fund is gone. Welcome to reality. Some of us inherited just enough survival DNA to believe in our own efforts and not some 'magic' leader who was going to lead us out of the wilderness. The path to Nirvana is longer than we thought. When I get to feeling sorry for myself for buying into the latest "new paradigm" or not having avoided the last new paradigm, I ask Fan about growing-up during the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution. Some things never change. My father-in-law had more smiles per day than any man I ever met. He'd seen a lot in his life, and if ever there was a man to be angry about the hand of cards he'd been dealt, he'd be a candidate. Sometimes, especially first thing in the morning, I want to tell Cora to wipe Grandpa Shen's smirk off her mouth and that ornery glint out of her eyes. It is a waste of time. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Rik, > > I did exactly the same things you did, with the same results. > > A lot of the people who have acquired and kept wealth did it simply by > working longer and harder than other people. Lots of doctors work 80 hours > a week. Why shouldn't they get twice as much pay as someone working 40 > hours a week? > > What I'm wondering is whether most people entering the labor market today > can do as well as we did no matter how hard they work. I think not. I > think they will come out to roughly the same place as most people will be > now. > > Was our generation lucky to get "the good years" even if they were an > illusion? > > I suspect the thrill of the ride was enough to compensate most for the fact > they will come out worse in the end, and I suspect most would get on that > ride again if they could. But I think that ride has closed, and is not > likely to come back for a long time. > > B. > > > > Rik Sandberg wrote: > > Bill, > > As opposed to "when I entered the labor force", absolutely I am better > off. Relative to 3 years ago though, not really. As I said, I have been > very fortunate to have been able to see these things coming at me when > it seemed others were blind to them. > > Of course when one considers whether he is better off or not one may > want to consider the investment in time and effort one put in to get to > this point. People like to point out how lucky I have been. My usual > retort is luck had nothing to do with it, the harder I worked, the > luckier I looked. I sat and estimated once how my time/effort would > compare to the average 9 to 5'er. I found that most people would still > have to be working well into their eighties to have spent as much time > at least trying to be productive as I have over the course of my life. > At the same time, I lived well below my means and used that savings to > reinvest in my business(s). If there is any "fairness" in the world, I > would hope that I am at least somewhat better off than the average guy. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate > preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > > > Rik, > > As I remember your history you are much better off now than you were > when you entered the labor force. > > I know just how you felt about trying to defend yourself from friends > who said you were raining on their parade. Same thing happened to me. > > However, I put my money where my mouth was, also. And I came out of > this better than they. > > So, the illusion worked for both of us because we saw through it early > enough to benefit from the real growth and we did not believe the > inflated growth would provide real benefits in perpetuity. > > What I am wondering is whether we did better than we would have done > had the national Ponzi scheme not been so successful among our peers. > > In all Ponzi schemes, those who cash out early enough can do extremely > well. > > Most people would prefer to lose their tax money in a lottery where > they have a remote chance of getting rich, than pay less taxes with no > chance of getting rich. I suspect that, given the opportunity, most > people would sooner get involved with another National Ponzi scheme > than work their way out of this problem. > > B. > > > > Rik Sandberg wrote: > > > Bill, Brad, > > > > > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if > you hadn't played along?" > > > > > Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... > > I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to > the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At > that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if > they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in > already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by > 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying > these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. > People acted like I was friggin' crazy. > > In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost > completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks > compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told > everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the > safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the > stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and > again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. > > However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus > interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming > have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, > while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in > both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems > I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the > "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away > by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as > it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder > in the country. > > So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than > most. > > Rik > > "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate > preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein > > > > Bill Effros wrote: > > > > Brad, > > We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. > > People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't > afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. > > People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, > but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. > > People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they > weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always > be a "greater fool" who would pay more. > > Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most > of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get > out before everything crashed and burned. > > Few of us were right. > > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if > you hadn't played along?" > > That question applies to everybody. > > I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having > played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful > heads had prevailed early on. What about you? > > Bill Effros > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 13:25:49 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:25:49 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat References: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> Message-ID: Bill, I think that I still need much more power to overcome the tidal current in the Nissequogue River (5 kts) than a small electric can deliver. It is a crucial passage to leave and return so it would be very difficult to wait for slack tide. My 7.5hp '80 Suzuki 2-stroke does it nicely and has for years. I originally looked at trolling motors (several) back in the early 80s. I thought that with a few, I could develop enough power to overcome the current. I thought that it would be easy to place two at the stern and one as a bow thruster for low speed steering. The main problem, in those days, was that the motors were not reversible electrically, they needed to be rotated to reverse. I had wanted to use a small controller capable of varying the power and polarity to motors. It would have permitted using a joystick (remotely) to pilot under electrical power. It is still a dream if the battery and motor technologies are available. Any info you have would be appreciated. Mike From: "Bill Effros" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:38 PM > My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 > years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily > repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. > > I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement > on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball > with it! > > It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any > stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for > hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at > the same speed. > > It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest > Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. > > The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my > mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put > the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric > motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else > suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor > lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a > most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a > "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and > take off the boat.) > > I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I > try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent > motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 > batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up > in series > > I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no > worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last > season, maybe it will finally happen. > > Will keep you posted. > > B. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From sanderico1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 13:31:18 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:31:18 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <49833E11.4020207@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <49831EF4.7020009@gmail.com> <49832AB5.3020208@effros.com> <498331A5.1030304@gmail.com> <49833E11.4020207@effros.com> Message-ID: <49834776.7050805@gmail.com> Bill, > What I'm wondering is whether most people entering the labor market > today can do as well as we did no matter how hard they work. I think > not. I think they will come out to roughly the same place as most > people will be now. It's all relative. I think people who do as you and I did will still (and always) be better off than the average guy. However, I agree that the overall standard will probably be lower for everyone. We will all just be comparing to a lower "average". > Was our generation lucky to get "the good years" even if they were an > illusion? No, I think the "lucky ones" are the ones who could see the illusion for what it was. those who may have been in it for the thrill of the ride can't possibly enjoy this unless they like being dumped on their ass at the end. Because of our enhanced vision, or luck as some would call it, we will be significantly better off than average for at least the near future. Now, if we can just see the bottom (not there yet, IMHO) we should be able to add to whatever wealth we have been able to retain via our ability to see the top. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Bill Effros wrote: > Rik, > > I did exactly the same things you did, with the same results. > > A lot of the people who have acquired and kept wealth did it simply by > working longer and harder than other people. Lots of doctors work 80 > hours a week. Why shouldn't they get twice as much pay as someone > working 40 hours a week? > > What I'm wondering is whether most people entering the labor market > today can do as well as we did no matter how hard they work. I think > not. I think they will come out to roughly the same place as most > people will be now. > > Was our generation lucky to get "the good years" even if they were an > illusion? > > I suspect the thrill of the ride was enough to compensate most for the > fact they will come out worse in the end, and I suspect most would get > on that ride again if they could. But I think that ride has closed, > and is not likely to come back for a long time. > > B. > > > > Rik Sandberg wrote: >> Bill, >> >> As opposed to "when I entered the labor force", absolutely I am better >> off. Relative to 3 years ago though, not really. As I said, I have been >> very fortunate to have been able to see these things coming at me when >> it seemed others were blind to them. >> >> Of course when one considers whether he is better off or not one may >> want to consider the investment in time and effort one put in to get to >> this point. People like to point out how lucky I have been. My usual >> retort is luck had nothing to do with it, the harder I worked, the >> luckier I looked. I sat and estimated once how my time/effort would >> compare to the average 9 to 5'er. I found that most people would still >> have to be working well into their eighties to have spent as much time >> at least trying to be productive as I have over the course of my life. >> At the same time, I lived well below my means and used that savings to >> reinvest in my business(s). If there is any "fairness" in the world, I >> would hope that I am at least somewhat better off than the average guy. >> >> Rik >> >> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >> >> >> >> Bill Effros wrote: >> >>> Rik, >>> >>> As I remember your history you are much better off now than you were >>> when you entered the labor force. >>> >>> I know just how you felt about trying to defend yourself from friends >>> who said you were raining on their parade. Same thing happened to me. >>> >>> However, I put my money where my mouth was, also. And I came out of >>> this better than they. >>> >>> So, the illusion worked for both of us because we saw through it early >>> enough to benefit from the real growth and we did not believe the >>> inflated growth would provide real benefits in perpetuity. >>> >>> What I am wondering is whether we did better than we would have done >>> had the national Ponzi scheme not been so successful among our peers. >>> >>> In all Ponzi schemes, those who cash out early enough can do extremely >>> well. >>> >>> Most people would prefer to lose their tax money in a lottery where >>> they have a remote chance of getting rich, than pay less taxes with no >>> chance of getting rich. I suspect that, given the opportunity, most >>> people would sooner get involved with another National Ponzi scheme >>> than work their way out of this problem. >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> Rik Sandberg wrote: >>> >>>> Bill, Brad, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Am I better off now? Well... no, but ... >>>> >>>> I the summer of '05 I was watching the real estate market shoot up to >>>> the point where no average person could ever hope to afford a home. At >>>> that time, I began to tell everyone I knew that they best back away if >>>> they were in and or certainly not enter this market if they weren't in >>>> already, because in the next couple years housing prices will drop by >>>> 1/3 and maybe even 1/2 or more. Some in here might remember me saying >>>> these things, 'cause I mentioned it on the other list more than once. >>>> People acted like I was friggin' crazy. >>>> >>>> In summer '06 I began to back away from the stock market almost >>>> completely as I was watching people pay ridiculous prices for stocks >>>> compared to the earning/profits they could hope to see in return. I told >>>> everyone I knew that getting out of debt and into cash would be the >>>> safest thing they could do for at least the near future, because the >>>> stock market was way too high priced. As usual, I was a tick early and >>>> again, people looked at me like I was a complete idiot. >>>> >>>> However, now, I have all of the money that I had in '05/'06 plus >>>> interest. All of the people who couldn't/wouldn't see what was coming >>>> have now become "victims" and are down in value by 1/2 or more. So, >>>> while I did indeed retain all the money I had prior to the downturn in >>>> both markets, I am still in worse shape than before because now it seems >>>> I must spend all of the money I safeguarded so diligently to save the >>>> "victims" from their own foolishness. My savings will be inflated away >>>> by a government that doesn't understand it's own free market system as >>>> it tries to save every inefficient business and foolish mortgage holder >>>> in the country. >>>> >>>> So, am I better off???... Not by a damned site! I'm just better off than >>>> most. >>>> >>>> Rik >>>> >>>> "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill Effros wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Brad, >>>>> >>>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>>> >>>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>>> >>>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, >>>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>>> >>>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always >>>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>>> >>>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>>> >>>>> Few of us were right. >>>>> >>>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>>> >>>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful >>>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>>> >>>>> Bill Effros >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 13:31:32 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:31:32 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> <498324FA.90309@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> Mike, Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It flattering but tiresome after awhile. Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional speed to me. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Brad, > > It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in heaven's > name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl > Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's > wanting what you've got." > > Then again, I am happy, but ... > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:36 > PM >> Mike, >> >> Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him >> standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! >> That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! >> I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the >> "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. >> She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We >> didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps >> could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I >> didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the >> wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once >> back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I >> explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the >> state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the >> line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and >> Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there >> anyway! >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner >> wrote: >>> Brad, >>> >>> Quoting you: >>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>> >>> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>> 11:31 AM >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >>>> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >>>> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >>>> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >>>> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >>>> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >>>> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >>>> major PITA! >>>> >>>> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >>>> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >>>> governments responsibility to do so. >>>> >>>> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >>>> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >>>> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >>>> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >>>> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >>>> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >>>> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >>>> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >>>> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >>>> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >>>> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >>>> >>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>> >>>> It's all relative. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>> Brad, >>>>> >>>>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>>>> >>>>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >>>>> would >>>>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>>>> >>>>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>>>> market >>>>> 40 years ago? >>>>> >>>>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >>>>> level, >>>>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>>>> >>>>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth >>>>> in >>>>> this country. >>>>> >>>>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>>>> >>>>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >>>>> 40 >>>>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >>>>> and >>>>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than >>>>> they >>>>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >>>>> when >>>>> they started. >>>>> >>>>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>>>> >>>>> B. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I >>>>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>>>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>>>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>>>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>>>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain >>>>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>>>> >>>>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>>>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with >>>>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>>>> >>>>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played >>>>> along?" >>>>> >>>>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>>>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>>>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>>>> thinking the same thing. >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brad, >>>>> >>>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>>> >>>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>>> >>>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >>>>> off, >>>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>>> >>>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >>>>> always >>>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>>> >>>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most >>>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>>> >>>>> Few of us were right. >>>>> >>>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if >>>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>>> >>>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >>>>> thoughtful >>>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>>> >>>>> Bill Effros >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 14:01:32 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:01:32 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice><400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brad, Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. It is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my 911T, well, except for the garage mechanic. As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not speed. My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not the destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long as I am on my way. Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:31 PM > Mike, > > Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I > have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be > very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is > mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you > have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It > flattering but tiresome after awhile. > > Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope > to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional > speed to me. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner > wrote: >> Brad, >> >> It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in >> heaven's >> name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl >> Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's >> wanting what you've got." >> >> Then again, I am happy, but ... >> >> Mike >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >> 12:36 >> PM >>> Mike, >>> >>> Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him >>> standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! >>> That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! >>> I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the >>> "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. >>> She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We >>> didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps >>> could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I >>> didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the >>> wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once >>> back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I >>> explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the >>> state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the >>> line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and >>> Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there >>> anyway! >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner >>> wrote: >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> Quoting you: >>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>> >>>> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>>> 11:31 AM >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >>>>> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >>>>> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >>>>> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >>>>> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >>>>> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >>>>> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >>>>> major PITA! >>>>> >>>>> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >>>>> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >>>>> governments responsibility to do so. >>>>> >>>>> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >>>>> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >>>>> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >>>>> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >>>>> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >>>>> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >>>>> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >>>>> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >>>>> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >>>>> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >>>>> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >>>>> >>>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>>> >>>>> It's all relative. >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>>> Brad, >>>>>> >>>>>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >>>>>> would >>>>>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>>>>> market >>>>>> 40 years ago? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >>>>>> level, >>>>>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual >>>>>> wealth >>>>>> in >>>>>> this country. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >>>>>> 40 >>>>>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >>>>>> and >>>>>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off >>>>>> than >>>>>> they >>>>>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >>>>>> when >>>>>> they started. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>>>>> >>>>>> B. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, >>>>>> I >>>>>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>>>>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>>>>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>>>>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>>>>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me >>>>>> complain >>>>>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>>>>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, >>>>>> with >>>>>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't >>>>>> played >>>>>> along?" >>>>>> >>>>>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>>>>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>>>>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>>>>> thinking the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad, >>>>>> >>>>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>>>> >>>>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>>>> >>>>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >>>>>> off, >>>>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>>>> >>>>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >>>>>> always >>>>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but >>>>>> most >>>>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>>>> >>>>>> Few of us were right. >>>>>> >>>>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been >>>>>> if >>>>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>>>> >>>>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >>>>>> thoughtful >>>>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Effros >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 14:09:05 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:09:05 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat In-Reply-To: <400985d70901300951q4b797717w53dfd99b72278d63@mail.gmail.com> References: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> <400985d70901300951q4b797717w53dfd99b72278d63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49835051.7050208@effros.com> Brad, I've got no idea of specs -- I bought the motor years ago for my dinghy and discovered I liked to row so I never used it. Look at bottom of the line trolling motors -- I would guess they're all just about the same. I do have the same genset -- you and Wally were talking about it and I pooh-poohed the idea. But then I heard one at a local boat show, and got one as a backup for my house for when the power goes out and I want to stay on-line. All the gensets and motors recommend that you not drive the motors directly from the gensets but put a battery in-between. I would imagine they function as a giant regulator, and protect both the motor and the genset. I don't know why you wouldn't hook it up this way. The real point, though, is that the motors use SO little power, and you need to use them for such a short period of time, that the battery power we routinely carry on sailboats is far more than is needed for any reasonable use of the motor. I would guess the genset can easily put more power into the battery than motor can take out if both are running simultaneously, but I have not yet begun to play. I don't think it makes any sense at all to start adding batteries. I'm sure my little motor would run for 12 hours at a moderate speed on the batteries I've got on board. I don't know how long it would take to fully recharge the batteries, but I would guess you can recharge and run the motor at the same time. This is a hybrid that really makes sense because the main power comes from the wind, not either the battery or the motor. I might be able to recharge my batteries solely using my solar cells. We'll see. B. Brad Haslett wrote: > Bill, > > What is the amperage draw on the motor? If you have the same > miniature Honda genset as mine (EU1000) it will put out 10 amps DC > continuously at 57 decibels. Is that enough to run the motor directly > or do you need to connect the genset to the batteries to the motor? > I'm guessing the gen-batt-motor setup is the optimal. I figured out a > long time ago that my decision to "upgrade" to a bigger boat was a > mistake. Twenty-two feet is optimal. What if you could replace the > ballast with a battery stack? Inquiring minds want to know! > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > >> My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 >> years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily >> repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. >> >> I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement >> on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball >> with it! >> >> It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any >> stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for >> hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at >> the same speed. >> >> It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest >> Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. >> >> The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my >> mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put >> the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric >> motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else >> suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor >> lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a >> most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a >> "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and >> take off the boat.) >> >> I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I >> try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent >> motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 >> batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up >> in series >> >> I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no >> worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last >> season, maybe it will finally happen. >> >> Will keep you posted. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/865b648b/attachment.html From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 14:15:23 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:15:23 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice><400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> Ok, I missed the picture. Can somebody point me to it? B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Brad, > > Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. It > is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my 911T, > well, except for the garage mechanic. > > As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not speed. > My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not the > destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long as > I am on my way. > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:31 > PM > >> Mike, >> >> Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I >> have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be >> very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is >> mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you >> have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It >> flattering but tiresome after awhile. >> >> Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope >> to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional >> speed to me. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner >> wrote: >> >>> Brad, >>> >>> It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in >>> heaven's >>> name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl >>> Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's >>> wanting what you've got." >>> >>> Then again, I am happy, but ... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>> 12:36 >>> PM >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him >>>> standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! >>>> That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! >>>> I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the >>>> "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. >>>> She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We >>>> didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps >>>> could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I >>>> didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the >>>> wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once >>>> back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I >>>> explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the >>>> state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the >>>> line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and >>>> Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there >>>> anyway! >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Brad, >>>>> >>>>> Quoting you: >>>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>>> >>>>> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>>>> 11:31 AM >>>>> >>>>>> Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >>>>>> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >>>>>> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >>>>>> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >>>>>> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >>>>>> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >>>>>> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >>>>>> major PITA! >>>>>> >>>>>> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >>>>>> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >>>>>> governments responsibility to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >>>>>> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >>>>>> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >>>>>> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >>>>>> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >>>>>> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >>>>>> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >>>>>> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >>>>>> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >>>>>> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >>>>>> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's all relative. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>>>>>> market >>>>>>> 40 years ago? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >>>>>>> level, >>>>>>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual >>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> this country. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >>>>>>> 40 >>>>>>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> they started. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>>>>>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>>>>>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>>>>>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>>>>>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me >>>>>>> complain >>>>>>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>>>>>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't >>>>>>> played >>>>>>> along?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>>>>>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>>>>>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>>>>>> thinking the same thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>>>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >>>>>>> off, >>>>>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>>>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >>>>>>> always >>>>>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>>>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Few of us were right. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>>>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >>>>>>> thoughtful >>>>>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Effros >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/e23b3d45/attachment-0001.html From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 14:22:15 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:22:15 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice><400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> Message-ID: <46F7D3B147F046FDB39BBAE70DD82D2C@ebsoffice> http://www.nypost.com/seven/01192009/news/nationalnews/on_the_wings_of_lust_150819.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Effros To: SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? Ok, I missed the picture. Can somebody point me to it? B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: Brad, Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. It is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my 911T, well, except for the garage mechanic. As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not speed. My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not the destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long as I am on my way. Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:31 PM Mike, Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It flattering but tiresome after awhile. Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional speed to me. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: Brad, It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in heaven's name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's wanting what you've got." Then again, I am happy, but ... Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:36 PM Mike, Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there anyway! Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: Brad, Quoting you: Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 11:31 AM Bill, Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a major PITA! We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the governments responsibility to do so. My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. It's all relative. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: Brad, My question is completely politically unloaded. I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I would have been without it, although I'm not really sure. Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor market 40 years ago? Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset level, compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth in this country. Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were 40 years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, and thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than they had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than when they started. Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? B. Brad Haslett wrote: Bill, The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are thinking the same thing. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: Brad, We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always be a "greater fool" who would pay more. Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get out before everything crashed and burned. Few of us were right. So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" That question applies to everybody. I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful heads had prevailed early on. What about you? Bill Effros _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/5a1ad218/attachment.html From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 14:23:33 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:23:33 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> <498324FA.90309@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901301123x6c63a6dn94c41264c3683ffe@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Here ya go - http://tinyurl.com/a8j8l6 Can you not see the length of those wings? Do you see the that streamlined radome hanging? Is that not a sweet looking prop? Maybe you don't enjoy looking at beautiful airplanes as much as I do. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Bill Effros wrote: > Ok, > > I missed the picture. > > Can somebody point me to it? > > B. > > > > Michael D. Weisner wrote: > > Brad, > > Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. It > is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my 911T, > well, except for the garage mechanic. > > As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not speed. > My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not the > destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long as > I am on my way. > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:31 > PM > > > Mike, > > Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I > have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be > very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is > mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you > have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It > flattering but tiresome after awhile. > > Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope > to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional > speed to me. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner > wrote: > > > Brad, > > It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in > heaven's > name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl > Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's > wanting what you've got." > > Then again, I am happy, but ... > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 > 12:36 > PM > > > Mike, > > Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him > standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! > That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! > I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the > "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. > She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We > didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps > could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I > didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the > wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once > back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I > explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the > state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the > line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and > Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there > anyway! > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner > wrote: > > > Brad, > > Quoting you: > Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot > "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane > leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. > > How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 > 11:31 AM > > > Bill, > > Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy > the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and > I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial > multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't > changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. > I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, > and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a > major PITA! > > We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. > But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the > governments responsibility to do so. > > My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend > the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his > second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering > he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. > He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes > at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans > and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is > whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be > kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your > way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he > interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. > > Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot > "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane > leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. > > It's all relative. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > > > Brad, > > My question is completely politically unloaded. > > I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I > would > have been without it, although I'm not really sure. > > Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor > market > 40 years ago? > > Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset > level, > compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. > > Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual > wealth > in > this country. > > Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. > > But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were > 40 > years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, > and > thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off > than > they > had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than > when > they started. > > Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? > > B. > > > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > Bill, > > The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, > I > didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan > statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total > monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" > paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My > 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me > complain > during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. > > Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I > made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, > with > two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. > > "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't > played > along?" > > With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US > Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not > sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are > thinking the same thing. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > > > Brad, > > We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. > > People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't > afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. > > People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them > off, > but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. > > People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they > weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would > always > be a "greater fool" who would pay more. > > Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but > most > of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get > out before everything crashed and burned. > > Few of us were right. > > So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been > if > you hadn't played along?" > > That question applies to everybody. > > I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having > played and won this silly game than I would have been if more > thoughtful > heads had prevailed early on. What about you? > > Bill Effros > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 14:34:53 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:34:53 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat In-Reply-To: References: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> Message-ID: <4983565D.7030500@effros.com> Mike, My guess is that the big Torqueedo will push an R-22 well enough for any situation. It seems to have all sorts of technological innovations built into it to make it suitable for just about any situation a boat our size will face. They cost so much money, you can't find anyone else with enough experience to validate this point. However, prices of everything are going to tumble as this depression takes hold, and we can afford to wait. The interesting thing about the little electric motors is how differently you think and sail. You never think about overcoming strong tidal currents -- you always know which way they are flowing, and go in and out on them if there isn't enough wind to overcome them. You think about setting anchor where you are, instead of dropping sail and motoring. I sail most of the way to and from my mooring, and it's much more challenging than simply motoring in and out. The sailing is much more interesting in every way, and much more like it was when "sailors" couldn't motor out of problems. Passengers like it better too, because you are quiet all the time. I have no respect for most people who "cruise" in their sailboats. They are essentially powerboats with sails on them. Most of these people have schedules, and will motor out when they should stay anchored, and make all kinds of ridiculous sailing decisions because they think they've got enough technology to bail themselves out of any foolish decision. Working out day trips on under-powered sailboats is much more challenging than the motorized cruises most people call "sailing". Owning a boat you can sleep on when you can't make it back to port is about as good as it gets, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not ready to take my boat down the East River yet without a big motor on the back, but practicing in local waters with strong tidal currents is what I'm going to do first. I'll get a big Torqueedo if I need one. I doubt I'll ever go back to a motor that weighs more than 50 lbs. Bill Effros Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Bill, > > I think that I still need much more power to overcome the tidal current in > the Nissequogue River (5 kts) than a small electric can deliver. It is a > crucial passage to leave and return so it would be very difficult to wait > for slack tide. My 7.5hp '80 Suzuki 2-stroke does it nicely and has for > years. > > I originally looked at trolling motors (several) back in the early 80s. I > thought that with a few, I could develop enough power to overcome the > current. I thought that it would be easy to place two at the stern and one > as a bow thruster for low speed steering. The main problem, in those days, > was that the motors were not reversible electrically, they needed to be > rotated to reverse. I had wanted to use a small controller capable of > varying the power and polarity to motors. It would have permitted using a > joystick (remotely) to pilot under electrical power. It is still a dream if > the battery and motor technologies are available. Any info you have would > be appreciated. > > Mike > > From: "Bill Effros" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:38 > PM > >> My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 >> years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily >> repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. >> >> I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement >> on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball >> with it! >> >> It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any >> stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for >> hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at >> the same speed. >> >> It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest >> Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. >> >> The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my >> mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put >> the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric >> motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else >> suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor >> lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a >> most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a >> "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and >> take off the boat.) >> >> I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I >> try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent >> motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 >> batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up >> in series >> >> I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no >> worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last >> season, maybe it will finally happen. >> >> Will keep you posted. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/149fa278/attachment.html From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 14:37:01 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:37:01 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] R-22:Hybrid Boat In-Reply-To: <49835051.7050208@effros.com> References: <49833AFC.6070505@effros.com> <400985d70901300951q4b797717w53dfd99b72278d63@mail.gmail.com> <49835051.7050208@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901301137y45e865cbp7523d60b63732d22@mail.gmail.com> Bill, We learned a lot after living off of generators for months after Katrina. Size matters! Everyone wants to run everything at once, but you learn to micro-manage power usage and schedule everything after you run out of fuel for your mega-generator and the filling stations don't have electricity to pump fuel. Sailing is like flying - it's all about managing energy. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Bill Effros wrote: > Brad, > > I've got no idea of specs -- I bought the motor years ago for my dinghy and > discovered I liked to row so I never used it. > > Look at bottom of the line trolling motors -- I would guess they're all just > about the same. > > I do have the same genset -- you and Wally were talking about it and I > pooh-poohed the idea. But then I heard one at a local boat show, and got > one as a backup for my house for when the power goes out and I want to stay > on-line. > > All the gensets and motors recommend that you not drive the motors directly > from the gensets but put a battery in-between. I would imagine they > function as a giant regulator, and protect both the motor and the genset. I > don't know why you wouldn't hook it up this way. > > The real point, though, is that the motors use SO little power, and you need > to use them for such a short period of time, that the battery power we > routinely carry on sailboats is far more than is needed for any reasonable > use of the motor. > > I would guess the genset can easily put more power into the battery than > motor can take out if both are running simultaneously, but I have not yet > begun to play. > > I don't think it makes any sense at all to start adding batteries. I'm sure > my little motor would run for 12 hours at a moderate speed on the batteries > I've got on board. I don't know how long it would take to fully recharge > the batteries, but I would guess you can recharge and run the motor at the > same time. > > This is a hybrid that really makes sense because the main power comes from > the wind, not either the battery or the motor. I might be able to recharge > my batteries solely using my solar cells. We'll see. > > B. > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > Bill, > > What is the amperage draw on the motor? If you have the same > miniature Honda genset as mine (EU1000) it will put out 10 amps DC > continuously at 57 decibels. Is that enough to run the motor directly > or do you need to connect the genset to the batteries to the motor? > I'm guessing the gen-batt-motor setup is the optimal. I figured out a > long time ago that my decision to "upgrade" to a bigger boat was a > mistake. Twenty-two feet is optimal. What if you could replace the > ballast with a battery stack? Inquiring minds want to know! > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > > > My old Tohatsu has seen too much salt water and air over the past 15 > years. Little things are going wrong, each of which can be easily > repaired, but I don't think that's the right thing to do at this point. > > I put an $87 electric trolling motor I had lying around in the basement > on Stan's motor lift at the end of last season and had a complete ball > with it! > > It completely changes the way you sail if you can't motor out of any > stupid situation you might get yourself into. Including sailing for > hours with the wind to your back and then motoring all the way back at > the same speed. > > It uses far less electricity than you would imagine. I put the smallest > Honda Generator on board as a backup, but never used it. > > The electric motor gives me all the control I need to get on and off my > mooring, and motor out of the harbor when the wind is against me. I put > the boat on my trailer using the electric motor. I find the electric > motor is much more effective for "pointing higher" than anything else > suggested. (It is close to totally quiet -- you can operate the motor > lift with 1 hand -- it is instant on and off -- it changes sailing in a > most interesting way -- it will rotate 360 and I sometimes use it as a > "stern-thruster" -- needless to say, it's a piece of cake to put on and > take off the boat.) > > I'll start next season with just the little motor I already own while I > try to decide if I need any more. Torqueedo makes a 24v 6hp equivalent > motor that would be all you would need on an R22. I already carry 2 > batteries and Torqueedo provides a cable that will let me hook them up > in series > > I'm still hopeful about getting onto the water early this year. With no > worries about my motor, and a good coat of wax at the end of last > season, maybe it will finally happen. > > Will keep you posted. > > B. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 14:38:06 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:38:06 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice><400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com><400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com><498351CB.7080108@effros.com> <400985d70901301123x6c63a6dn94c41264c3683ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6F3F426F52974AC7AA0F2545414138A0@ebsoffice> Brad, What a beautiful wedding album picture. Of course, you'll want to see the house, too at http://maps.google.com insert the address "12971 Rocky Pointe Rd, Mc Cordsville, IN 46055-9584" and go to street level. Really, I would expected more. Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:23 PM > Bill, > > Here ya go - > > http://tinyurl.com/a8j8l6 > > Can you not see the length of those wings? Do you see the that > streamlined radome hanging? > Is that not a sweet looking prop? > > Maybe you don't enjoy looking at beautiful airplanes as much as I do. > > Brad > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Bill Effros wrote: >> Ok, >> >> I missed the picture. >> >> Can somebody point me to it? >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Michael D. Weisner wrote: >> >> Brad, >> >> Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. >> It >> is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my >> 911T, >> well, except for the garage mechanic. >> >> As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not >> speed. >> My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not >> the >> destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long >> as >> I am on my way. >> >> Mike >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >> 1:31 >> PM >> >> >> Mike, >> >> Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I >> have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be >> very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is >> mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you >> have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It >> flattering but tiresome after awhile. >> >> Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope >> to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional >> speed to me. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner >> wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in >> heaven's >> name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl >> Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's >> wanting what you've got." >> >> Then again, I am happy, but ... >> >> Mike >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >> 12:36 >> PM >> >> >> Mike, >> >> Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him >> standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! >> That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! >> I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the >> "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. >> She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We >> didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps >> could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I >> didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the >> wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once >> back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I >> explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the >> state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the >> line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and >> Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there >> anyway! >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner >> wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> Quoting you: >> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >> >> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >> >> Mike >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >> 11:31 AM >> >> >> Bill, >> >> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >> major PITA! >> >> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >> governments responsibility to do so. >> >> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >> >> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >> >> It's all relative. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> My question is completely politically unloaded. >> >> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >> would >> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >> >> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >> market >> 40 years ago? >> >> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >> level, >> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >> >> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual >> wealth >> in >> this country. >> >> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >> >> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >> 40 >> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >> and >> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off >> than >> they >> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >> when >> they started. >> >> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >> >> B. >> >> >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, >> I >> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me >> complain >> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >> >> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, >> with >> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >> >> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't >> played >> along?" >> >> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >> thinking the same thing. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >> >> >> Brad, >> >> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >> >> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >> >> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >> off, >> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >> >> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >> always >> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >> >> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but >> most >> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >> out before everything crashed and burned. >> >> Few of us were right. >> >> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been >> if >> you hadn't played along?" >> >> That question applies to everybody. >> >> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >> thoughtful >> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 14:45:15 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:45:15 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <46F7D3B147F046FDB39BBAE70DD82D2C@ebsoffice> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice><400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> <46F7D3B147F046FDB39BBAE70DD82D2C@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <498358CB.9080508@effros.com> Bless you. "Tie Wrist"? Did you listen to the video? B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: > http://www.nypost.com/seven/01192009/news/nationalnews/on_the_wings_of_lust_150819.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bill Effros > *To:* SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > > *Sent:* Friday, January 30, 2009 2:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? > > Ok, > > I missed the picture. > > Can somebody point me to it? > > B. > > > > Michael D. Weisner wrote: >> Brad, >> >> Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. It >> is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my 911T, >> well, except for the garage mechanic. >> >> As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not speed. >> My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not the >> destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long as >> I am on my way. >> >> Mike >> >> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:31 >> PM >> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I >>> have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be >>> very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is >>> mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you >>> have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It >>> flattering but tiresome after awhile. >>> >>> Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope >>> to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional >>> speed to me. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in >>>> heaven's >>>> name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl >>>> Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's >>>> wanting what you've got." >>>> >>>> Then again, I am happy, but ... >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>>> 12:36 >>>> PM >>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him >>>>> standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! >>>>> That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! >>>>> I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the >>>>> "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. >>>>> She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We >>>>> didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps >>>>> could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I >>>>> didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the >>>>> wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once >>>>> back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I >>>>> explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the >>>>> state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the >>>>> line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and >>>>> Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there >>>>> anyway! >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Brad, >>>>>> >>>>>> Quoting you: >>>>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>>>>> 11:31 AM >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >>>>>>> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >>>>>>> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >>>>>>> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >>>>>>> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >>>>>>> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >>>>>>> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >>>>>>> major PITA! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >>>>>>> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >>>>>>> governments responsibility to do so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >>>>>>> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >>>>>>> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >>>>>>> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >>>>>>> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >>>>>>> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >>>>>>> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >>>>>>> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >>>>>>> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >>>>>>> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >>>>>>> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>>>>>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>>>>>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's all relative. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>>>>>>> market >>>>>>>> 40 years ago? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >>>>>>>> level, >>>>>>>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual >>>>>>>> wealth >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> this country. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >>>>>>>> 40 >>>>>>>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> they started. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>>>>>>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>>>>>>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>>>>>>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>>>>>>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me >>>>>>>> complain >>>>>>>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>>>>>>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't >>>>>>>> played >>>>>>>> along?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>>>>>>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>>>>>>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>>>>>>> thinking the same thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>>>>>>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >>>>>>>> off, >>>>>>>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>>>>>>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>>>>>>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Few of us were right. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> you hadn't played along?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That question applies to everybody. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>>>>>>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >>>>>>>> thoughtful >>>>>>>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill Effros >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/4a7413c2/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 14:49:15 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <400985d70901301123x6c63a6dn94c41264c3683ffe@mail.gmail.com> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> <498324FA.90309@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> <400985d70901301123x6c63a6dn94c41264c3683ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498359BB.5090000@effros.com> The problem is the man has too many fingers on his right hand. B. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SNAG-0002 1-30-2009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/8c36f473/attachment-0001.jpg From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 14:53:44 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:53:44 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? In-Reply-To: <6F3F426F52974AC7AA0F2545414138A0@ebsoffice> References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com> <400985d70901301123x6c63a6dn94c41264c3683ffe@mail.gmail.com> <6F3F426F52974AC7AA0F2545414138A0@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <400985d70901301153t69a53a7au6041cd716073491@mail.gmail.com> Mike, Circa 1987, my employer bought the old Purolator hub in Indianapolis (now our second national hub). I moved there in 1989 to be closer to my parents (downstate Illinois) and decided after freezing my ass off for two winters that I wasn't that far away from my parents in Tennessee. At the time I had a 17' ski-boat and launched at Geist Lake one day. Waaay too crowed and like most MidWest lakes, filled with agricultural chemical run-off. Everything is relative. His was a 'big' house on a prominent point. Actually, it was a 'cheap as shit' house made to look big on a polluted lake. But he looked good! Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Brad, > > What a beautiful wedding album picture. > > Of course, you'll want to see the house, too at http://maps.google.com > insert the address "12971 Rocky Pointe Rd, Mc Cordsville, IN 46055-9584" > and go to street level. Really, I would expected more. > > Mike > > From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:23 > PM >> Bill, >> >> Here ya go - >> >> http://tinyurl.com/a8j8l6 >> >> Can you not see the length of those wings? Do you see the that >> streamlined radome hanging? >> Is that not a sweet looking prop? >> >> Maybe you don't enjoy looking at beautiful airplanes as much as I do. >> >> Brad >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Bill Effros wrote: >>> Ok, >>> >>> I missed the picture. >>> >>> Can somebody point me to it? >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael D. Weisner wrote: >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. >>> It >>> is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my >>> 911T, >>> well, except for the garage mechanic. >>> >>> As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not >>> speed. >>> My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not >>> the >>> destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long >>> as >>> I am on my way. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>> 1:31 >>> PM >>> >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I >>> have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be >>> very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is >>> mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you >>> have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It >>> flattering but tiresome after awhile. >>> >>> Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope >>> to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional >>> speed to me. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in >>> heaven's >>> name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl >>> Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's >>> wanting what you've got." >>> >>> Then again, I am happy, but ... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>> 12:36 >>> PM >>> >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him >>> standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! >>> That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! >>> I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the >>> "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. >>> She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We >>> didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps >>> could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I >>> didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the >>> wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once >>> back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I >>> explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the >>> state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the >>> line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and >>> Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there >>> anyway! >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> Quoting you: >>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>> >>> How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 >>> 11:31 AM >>> >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy >>> the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and >>> I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial >>> multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't >>> changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. >>> I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, >>> and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a >>> major PITA! >>> >>> We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. >>> But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the >>> governments responsibility to do so. >>> >>> My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend >>> the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his >>> second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering >>> he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. >>> He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes >>> at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans >>> and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is >>> whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be >>> kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your >>> way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he >>> interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. >>> >>> Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot >>> "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane >>> leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. >>> >>> It's all relative. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> My question is completely politically unloaded. >>> >>> I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I >>> would >>> have been without it, although I'm not really sure. >>> >>> Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor >>> market >>> 40 years ago? >>> >>> Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset >>> level, >>> compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. >>> >>> Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual >>> wealth >>> in >>> this country. >>> >>> Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. >>> >>> But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were >>> 40 >>> years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, >>> and >>> thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off >>> than >>> they >>> had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than >>> when >>> they started. >>> >>> Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? >>> >>> B. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Brad Haslett wrote: >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, >>> I >>> didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan >>> statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total >>> monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" >>> paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My >>> 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me >>> complain >>> during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. >>> >>> Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I >>> made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, >>> with >>> two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. >>> >>> "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't >>> played >>> along?" >>> >>> With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US >>> Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not >>> sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are >>> thinking the same thing. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. >>> >>> People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't >>> afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. >>> >>> People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them >>> off, >>> but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. >>> >>> People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they >>> weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would >>> always >>> be a "greater fool" who would pay more. >>> >>> Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but >>> most >>> of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get >>> out before everything crashed and burned. >>> >>> Few of us were right. >>> >>> So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been >>> if >>> you hadn't played along?" >>> >>> That question applies to everybody. >>> >>> I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having >>> played and won this silly game than I would have been if more >>> thoughtful >>> heads had prevailed early on. What about you? >>> >>> Bill Effros >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >>> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >>> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 15:01:07 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:01:07 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics: Prices of everything are going to tumble as this depression takes hold Message-ID: <25CA98E7819C40A2AC549E6238150660@ebsoffice> Bill, What an interesting observation you made: "However, prices of everything are going to tumble as this depression takes hold, and we can afford to wait." Why wait? My middle daughter needs a newer vehicle than her old handed down '91 as she graduates from college this year and hopes to enter the workforce as an elementary school teacher. I started looking at used and new vehicles and have discovered that the market is so depressed that if you have cash, you can just about name your price. We are currently deciding whether we want to help her get into a very attractive '09 Hyundai Sonata lease or purchase a used '05 "loaded" Mazda 3 with only 45K miles on it. My thoughts are as follows: New car lease = no real maintenance for first 36K miles (3 yrs), $200/mo+$500 down Used car w/40-50K miles, tires, brakes, etc. already done so no real maintenance for another 30-40K miles (reliable manufacturers), $5K-6K purchase price Therefore, a lease costs $7100 and the used '05 vehicles are selling for a bit less just to move the inventory! Even at the auctions! The question then becomes what will she have in 3 years? An overpriced lease buyout (no equity) or an 8 year old decent car. This is really becoming a buyer's market! Anyone want a used boat? plane? Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/1794a192/attachment.html From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 15:02:08 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:02:08 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <49831438.10509@effros.com><400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com><498324FA.90309@effros.com><400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com><7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice><400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com><46F7D3B147F046FDB39BBAE70DD82D2C@ebsoffice> <498358CB.9080508@effros.com> Message-ID: <64535D8B2C4A4BB798E2E3B487954B57@ebsoffice> Yes, I think he meant "tryst". What do they teach in journalism class nowadays? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Effros To: SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? Bless you. "Tie Wrist"? Did you listen to the video? B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: http://www.nypost.com/seven/01192009/news/nationalnews/on_the_wings_of_lust_150819.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Effros To: SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? Ok, I missed the picture. Can somebody point me to it? B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: Brad, Point taken. But it is like the first real sports car that you bought. It is soooo much fun to drive fast and recklessly. Nobody ever drove my 911T, well, except for the garage mechanic. As my better half always reminds me, she was built for distance, not speed. My response is always that I thought it was all about the journey, not the destination. That's why I sail - I don't care where I am going, as long as I am on my way. Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:31 PM Mike, Though I don't have direct experience with that specific machine, I have experience with those types of machines in general. They can be very demanding in maintenance and performance. The maintenance is mostly about money, the performance can be more challenging. When you have a machine like that, everyone want to ride in it as well. It flattering but tiresome after awhile. Now as to the airplane - never flown one, worked on one, nor ever hope to own one. Looks like a lot of expense for very little additional speed to me. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: Brad, It's pictures like the one of the wife that make me ask, "What in heaven's name was he looking for if that wasn't enough?" As the line in Sheryl Crow's song 'Soak Up the Sun' goes, "It's not having what you want it's wanting what you've got." Then again, I am happy, but ... Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:36 PM Mike, Yeah, but they did find this dumb ass. Did you see the photo with him standing with his wife in front of the Lexus and the Malibu? Damn! That is one long set of, er, wings on that plane! Fantasies die hard! I guess I'm lucky in that respect. As a 17 year-old I finally got the "girl of my dreams" to go flying with me. I wanted that soooo badly. She asked me once aloft, "can you see state lines from the air?" We didn't have Viagra back then and at 17 I didn't need it, but perhaps could have used a pill right then. At that early point in my career I didn't know whether to ask her to quit sucking the air from under the wings into her head or let some out for more lift. I got over it once back in the car. Anyway, being the 'kind and gentle soul I am', I explained to Joy (you can't make shit like this up) that, "yes, the state line between Illinois and Missouri is easy to spot, as is the line between Illinois and Kentucky - the one between Illinois and Wisconsin is hard to see but we don't have the fuel to go there anyway! Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: Brad, Quoting you: Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. How do you know? They never did find DB Cooper ... Mike From: "Brad Haslett" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 11:31 AM Bill, Most folks pay too much attention to the destination and don't enjoy the journey. I was having j fun flying commuters at $700 a month, and I'm still having fun doing a much easier job now at a substantial multiplier of that salary. Maslowe's 'Hierarchy of Needs' hasn't changed. You need to eat, stay warm, and get laid every now and again. I'm pretty happy with a really old airplane, a 25 year old sailboat, and a 14 year old car. I've had a younger wife before and it's a major PITA! We need a safety net in place to help people get back on their feet. But, we can't afford to "make people whole" and it's not ours or the governments responsibility to do so. My oldest son is driving over from Little Rock this evening to spend the weekend and help me tinker at the hangar. He will finish his second undergrad this year, Construction Management, after discovering he loves the industry but not working for a piss-ant family company. He works during the day for a construction company and attends classes at night, paying for this one on his own nickel through student loans and personal earnings. He learned from his Grandfather, who spent is whole life in construction as both a laborer and a superintendent, "be kind to people on your way up and maybe they'll be kind to you on your way down". Spencer took it to heart and I was really proud of how he interacted with immigrant labor on the coast after Katrina. Am I better off? Yeah, a helluva lot better off than that idiot "investment counselor" who jumped out of his million dollar airplane leaving behind his "trophy wife" and 'bigasshouse' a few weeks ago. It's all relative. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Bill Effros wrote: Brad, My question is completely politically unloaded. I think I'm better off because of the national Ponzi scheme than I would have been without it, although I'm not really sure. Am I comparatively better off now than I was when I entered the labor market 40 years ago? Yes. Certainly I have moved up into a different income and asset level, compared to others who were in the labor force 40 years ago. Some of that was due to real growth, new industries, more actual wealth in this country. Some of that was due to betting on the right horse in the right race. But I know many of my contemporaries are worse off now than they were 40 years ago. However in the intervening 40 years they had a good time, and thought throughout their working lives, that they were better off than they had been. Now they are discovering that they are no better off than when they started. Most of them would probably do it again. Are they wrong? B. Brad Haslett wrote: Bill, The real estate Ponzi scheme didn't hurt me a bit, directly that is, I didn't play. The market hurt me A LOT. I just opened Cora's 529 plan statement yesterday and it is now worth $500 less than the total monies contributed to it (two years ago her education was "in theory" paid for at any of the most expensive colleges in the country). My 401K is down 40%. Yeah, I got burned, but you never heard me complain during all those years when I was "earning" 20%+ per year returns. Is the government going to bail me out? No, and why should they? I made those investment decisions as a grown adult, and in my case, with two degrees in business. The responsibility is mine and only mine. "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" With the benefit of hindsight, I should have invested in US Treasuries. Will I do that in the future? No, I doubt it, I'm not sure about the US Government's ability to repay. The Chinese are thinking the same thing. Brad On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Bill Effros wrote: Brad, We are in this jam because we are all complicit in it. People who couldn't afford the homes they lived in KNEW they couldn't afford their homes, but they enjoyed living in them while they could. People maxing out their credit cards KNEW they could never pay them off, but they enjoyed what they were buying for the moment. People playing "Hot Potato" with stocks and other assets KNEW they weren't worth what they were paying, but they thought there would always be a "greater fool" who would pay more. Many of us called this situation at the time it was going on...but most of us played into it anyhow, thinking we would be smart enough to get out before everything crashed and burned. Few of us were right. So my question is, "Are you better off now than you would have been if you hadn't played along?" That question applies to everybody. I'm not sure of the answer, although I think I am better off having played and won this silly game than I would have been if more thoughtful heads had prevailed early on. What about you? Bill Effros _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ SwiftwaterGazette mailing list SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/f77e1f51/attachment-0001.html From mweisner at ebsmed.com Fri Jan 30 15:04:59 2009 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:04:59 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] P: Are You Better Off Now? References: <49831095.8010208@effros.com> <400985d70901300705m15f24aeay28018a6c288226f1@mail.gmail.com> <498324FA.90309@effros.com> <400985d70901300831l67e50b5en962a03f915230a8a@mail.gmail.com> <7BAAE065EECB48BDA960DE9C1D40C7B3@ebsoffice> <400985d70901300936r49639af5q73018345c3f0cf69@mail.gmail.com> <400985d70901301031vad12693q451f6c180f75e20@mail.gmail.com> <498351CB.7080108@effros.com><400985d70901301123x6c63a6dn94c41264c3683ffe@mail.gmail.com> <498359BB.5090000@effros.com> Message-ID: Bill, Very funny! And pink nail polish! Those were the days, when Michelle could still hold onto his hand. Mike From: "Bill Effros" Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:49 PM > The problem is the man has too many fingers on his right hand. > > B. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 16:44:51 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:44:51 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics: Prices of everything are going to tumble as this depression takes hold In-Reply-To: <25CA98E7819C40A2AC549E6238150660@ebsoffice> References: <25CA98E7819C40A2AC549E6238150660@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <400985d70901301344q36de876y9a376f84d992ae2a@mail.gmail.com> Mike, The Hyundai Sonata is a great, great car! I talked one of my ABC friends (American Based Chinese) to break free from the Honda/Toyota Japanese stranglehold they have on the Chinese car buyers and buy Korean (built in Alabama) and he loves his new car. I rented one a few years earlier and was impressed. The Elantra, next model down, was somebodies (Motor Trend maybe) car of the year last year. Most of the cabs for the Beijing Olympics were Elantras (built outside Beijing near the airport) but the ones we get are built in Alabama. IMHO, the redneck Hyundai's are great bargains. The one downside is they don't hold their value as well as the Honda and Toyota's. For that reason alone I wouldn't lease one. I don't think leasing is ever a good idea. Buy one new and finance it long term. She'll be paying it off with inflated dollars and the warranty is for 100K miles. Hell, I've almost talked myself into buying one but my 14 year old Lexus only has 150K miles and it's barely broken-in. Brad 2009/1/30 Michael D. Weisner : > Bill, > > What an interesting observation you made: > "However, prices of everything are going to tumble as this > depression takes hold, > and we can afford to wait." > > Why wait? My middle daughter needs a newer vehicle than her old handed down > '91 as she graduates from college this year and hopes to enter the workforce > as an elementary school teacher. I started looking at used and new vehicles > and have discovered that the market is so depressed that if you have cash, > you can just about name your price. We are currently deciding whether we > want to help her get into a very attractive '09 Hyundai Sonata lease or > purchase a used '05 "loaded" Mazda 3 with only 45K miles on it. My thoughts > are as follows: > > New car lease = no real maintenance for first 36K miles (3 yrs), > $200/mo+$500 down > Used car w/40-50K miles, tires, brakes, etc. already done so no real > maintenance for > another 30-40K miles (reliable manufacturers), $5K-6K purchase price > > Therefore, a lease costs $7100 and the used '05 vehicles are selling for a > bit less just to move the inventory! Even at the auctions! The question > then becomes what will she have in 3 years? An overpriced lease buyout (no > equity) or an 8 year old decent car. > > This is really becoming a buyer's market! Anyone want a used boat? plane? > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From flybrad at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 17:29:20 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:29:20 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics - Purely Partisan Message-ID: <400985d70901301429q14c9ccb5xd79df77abcc26cd4@mail.gmail.com> Hooorayy! My candidate, Michael Steele, just won RNC Chairman on the 6th ballot. He's got an uphill fight but he's the right man for the job! There is hope for America! As Charlie Daniels once said, "ain't it a great day to be alive and in Tennessee!" Brad From bill at effros.com Fri Jan 30 17:45:32 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:45:32 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics: Prices of everything are going to tumble as this depression takes hold In-Reply-To: <25CA98E7819C40A2AC549E6238150660@ebsoffice> References: <25CA98E7819C40A2AC549E6238150660@ebsoffice> Message-ID: <4983830C.9030302@effros.com> Thanks, Mike, My son and daughter-in-law are moving to San Francisco tomorrow and they've been asking about cars. I'll forward this to them. B. Michael D. Weisner wrote: > Bill, > > What an interesting observation you made: > "However, prices of everything are going to tumble as this > depression takes hold, > and we can afford to wait." > > Why wait? My middle daughter needs a newer vehicle than her old > handed down '91 as she graduates from college this year and hopes to > enter the workforce as an elementary school teacher. I started > looking at used and new vehicles and have discovered that the market > is so depressed that if you have cash, you can just about name your > price. We are currently deciding whether we want to help her get into > a very attractive '09 Hyundai Sonata lease or purchase a used '05 > "loaded" Mazda 3 with only 45K miles on it. My thoughts are as follows: > > New car lease = no real maintenance for first 36K miles (3 yrs), > $200/mo+$500 down > Used car w/40-50K miles, tires, brakes, etc. already done so no > real maintenance for > another 30-40K miles (reliable manufacturers), $5K-6K purchase > price > > Therefore, a lease costs $7100 and the used '05 vehicles are selling > for a bit less just to move the inventory! Even at the auctions! The > question then becomes what will she have in 3 years? An overpriced > lease buyout (no equity) or an 8 year old decent car. > > This is really becoming a buyer's market! Anyone want a used boat? > plane? > > Mike > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090130/04714f8d/attachment.html From flybrad at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 06:42:48 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 05:42:48 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork In-Reply-To: <49832832.70709@effros.com> References: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> <400985d70901300718k4be7c84brade9d10fdb6f9618@mail.gmail.com> <49832832.70709@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901310342n39427f2cjffb6ef76ff2c352f@mail.gmail.com> Bill, It should be obvious by now that this bill is nothing but a Christmas list for the left. Here's another hidden "gem" in the bill - http://tinyurl.com/bv8den The last I read, it takes about 4 years of driving to recoup the energy costs of scrapping a gas guzzler versus the energy used in producing a Prius or other high-mileage car. Talk about meddling in markets! This bill needs to be stopped. There may be a useful item or two buried in the 700 or so pages that is worthwhile, but passing this thing wholesale is dangerous. As a partisan, I'm tempted to say, "go ahead and pass it, you just sealed your fate in he 2010 elections". But, I'm more worried about my country than politics. Brad 2009/1/30 Bill Effros : > Brad, > > This stuff is dumb, no doubt about it. > > And it won't work. > > Just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. > > B. > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > More bad "stuff" in the so-called Stimulus Bill. Remember, it was the > Smoot-Hawley Tarrif under Hoover that accelerated us into the Great > Depression. Obama is owned by the unions and this is the first of many > "bones" he's throwing their way. The restraint of trade provisions in > this bill are the same as Smoot-Hawley. Our biggest creditors are > China, Japan, and Great Britain. What's going to happen when they > pick-up their bat, and ball, and glove and leave the field? The One > is totally clueless - I'm not just saying that as a partisan, this is > scary shit! His wife has him by the balls at home and Nancy has his > balls at the office. Is there anyone out there with any sanity? > Hello! Anyone? > > Brad > > ---------------- > > US-EU trade war looms as Barack Obama bill urges 'Buy American' > > The prospect of a trade war between the US and Europe is looming after > "Buy American" provisions were added to President Barack Obama's $820 > billion (?573 billion) stimulus package. > > > By Alex Spillius in Washington > Last Updated: 12:27AM GMT 30 Jan 2009 > > > The EU trade commissioner vowed to fight back after the bill passed in > the House of Representatives late on Wednesday included a ban on most > purchases of foreign steel and iron used in infrastructure projects. > > The Senate's version of the legislation, which will be debated early > next week, goes even further, requiring that any projects related to > the stimulus use only American-made equipment and goods. > > The inclusion of protectionist measures has quickly raised hackles in > Europe. > > Catherine Ashton, the EU trade commissioner, said: "We are looking at > the situation. The one thing we can be absolutely certain about, is if > a bill is passed which prohibits the sale or purchase of European > goods on American territory, that is something we will not stand idly > by and ignore." > > Despite the parlous state of the US economy, some major American > firms, including General Electric, are also opposed to the Buy > American stipulations, fearing reprisals from overseas and further > damage to the global economy. > > Bill Lane, government affairs director for Caterpillar, which has just > laid off nearly a fifth of its 112,000 work force and is the tenth > largest US investor in Britain, warned it was a dangerous step. > > He said: "We are the first to recognise that if the US embraces Buy > American then the whole notion of buying national will mestastasize > and limit our ability to take part in overseas projects. > > "We are students of history. A major reason a very deep recession > turned into the Great Depression was the fact that countries turned > inward." > > Countries in Europe and Asia are planning major injections of cash > into infrastructure to boost their economies, and US firms don't want > to be left out of potentially lucrative contracts. > > "We would be a primary beneficiary of any type of infrastructure > project in the US, but at the same time we are one of the country's > largest exporters," he added. > > Some industrial giants also question whether the Buy American laws > would contravene US obligations reached in various World Trade > Organisation agreements. > > They also point to the 1930s as a lesson in the perils of > protectionism. Congress passed the Buy American Act in 1933, allowing > the government to favour US products for government contracts. > Restrictions were eased in 1982, but the plans currently working their > way through Congress would bring the new law close to its forebear of > 75 years ago. > > Foreign steel would only be allowed if using US steel drove up the > cost of a project by more than 25 per cent, while the bill passed on > Wednesday required that the Transportation and Security Administration > use American-made uniforms. > > Supporters of Buy American argue that tighter measures are required to > protect American jobs and point out that the US steel industry is > losing out to Chinese imports subsidised by Beijing. > > "As we are losing jobs in record numbers, we obviously need to devote > these funds to direct creation of American jobs," said Sherrod Brown, > a senator from Ohio, part of the struggling industrial heartland. > > Unemployment in his state has risen to 7.6 per cent, up from 5.8 per > cent in December 2007. > > "To do that, we must ensure that federal funds are used to buy > American products and to help promote manufacturing in our country. > Ultimately I want taxpayers to know where their dollars are being > spent. Are they being spent on American products or products coming > from Germany or Mexico?" > > Mr Obama has sent mixed signals on free trade throughout his campaign > and the early days of his presidency. He has argued that the North > American Free Trade should be recalibrated in favour of American > workers, but has stressed the need for a co-operative international > approach to the economic crisis. > > Though fellow Democrats in the house and senate drafted their versions > of the stimulus bill, the new president and his advisers had major > input and influence over the contents. > > The bill failed to win a single Republican vote in the house, despite > a major charm offensive by Mr Obama, which included a visit to > Congress and an invitation to Congressional leaders to drinks at the > White House. > > It passed thanks to the Democrats' healthy majority, but the senate > bill could see a tougher fight. Each rendering of the bill will be > merged at a process known as conference, before being returned to both > chambers for a new vote. The president has asked that a final bill be > presented to him by February 13. > > > > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4389597/US-EU-trade-war-looms-as-Barack-Obama-bill-urges-Buy-American.html > Related Content > > > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > > > Brad--Dead horse. > > My question is "Why does everyone keep throwing in the 'recession might > be over' canard?" > > This country is going through a fundamental restructuring. > > I doubt we will ever go back to the days where everyone thought they > would earn above average incomes. > > There will be a lot of flailing while people settle into a different > standard of living than they thought the future would bring. > > Wealth is not being redistributed, it is simply being reduced for almost > everyone. > > Bill Effros > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > > Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. > Here is his latest. > > Brad > > -------------- > > A Bleak Day > > By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM > > I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate > in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 > billion per hour of debate. > > Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. > > Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members > of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and > municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. > > This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven > days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one > member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, > it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama > to have read the entire bill. > > For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in > the United States roughly $75,000. > > We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing > through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly > $300,000. > > There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The > scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and > no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. > > Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the > trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be > spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. > > How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that > it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens > to us then? > > This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, > far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect > America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the > constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a > responsible government itself. A bleak day. > > Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days > stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where > truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten > ancestors. > > Letter to the Editor > StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook > > Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly > Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The > American Spectator. > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From ekroposki at charter.net Sat Jan 31 06:57:58 2009 From: ekroposki at charter.net (Ed Kroposki) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:57:58 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] RNC Chairman Message-ID: <50932F346B54460CA95F98FF5B13FCD1@YOURB88038198E> Brad, I have heard Ken Blackwell speak and Steele speak. Blackwell was much more a conservative and extolled American traditional values. Your man may be good but he will have to grow into the job. We shall see he can step up a notch. Katon Dawson, the guy he beat, runs an independent auto parts business when he is not doing politics. The guy is a brilliant organizer and strong organizational administrator. Dawson was not on a ego trip seeking national recognition. He is just a natural organizer and effective administrative leader who others suggested that he seek the RNC job. He got into the South Carolina Republican Chairman's job before his kids came along and the business needed him. I was surprised he ran for the national office because of his family. I believe he is giving up the South Carolina chairmanship. While he said he supported Steele, I suspect that he will turn to running his business now. He paid for his travels out of his own pocket. I know his pocket is not deep. I do not expect him to run for any other public office. While he does well speaking before a crowd, he is not the eloquent speaker that politicians tend to be. He will do well in businesses because he has talent, integrity and is a hard working good guy. Ed K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090131/a4fb23db/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 0 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090131/a4fb23db/attachment-0001.bin -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1923 - Release Date: 01/29/09 07:13:00 From flybrad at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 07:39:59 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:39:59 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] RNC Chairman In-Reply-To: <50932F346B54460CA95F98FF5B13FCD1@YOURB88038198E> References: <50932F346B54460CA95F98FF5B13FCD1@YOURB88038198E> Message-ID: <400985d70901310439o22580e85k37d00251448924e6@mail.gmail.com> Ed, The most salient criticism's made by Steele's detractors are precisely those virtues you attributed to Blackwell and Dawson, ie, Steele is a moderate and lacks organizational skills. Mr. Steele is a dynamic speaker and obviously (at least to me) a very intelligent man. If he turns out to be a RINO, or a McCain style Democrat-lite, my enthusiasm and support for him will fade quickly. We'll see. I hope he grows into the job as well, he's got his work cut out for him. Perhaps Blackwell can help keep him on the Conservative path and Dawson and will lend his management skills. The GOP has an exciting crop of candidates in the wings - Palin, Jindal, Cantor just to name three. The more I watch Cantor is action the more I like the guy. I called my Congressman Marsh Blackburn the day of the House vote and her staffer assured me she would vote against the "stimulus" package. I've since e-mailed Senators Alexander and Corker and told both I would neither "forgive or forget" any Republican who voted for it in the Senate. This bill is horrible legislation and has nothing to do with getting the economy back on its feet. Brad On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Ed Kroposki wrote: > Brad, > > I have heard Ken Blackwell speak and Steele speak. Blackwell was much more > a conservative and extolled American traditional values. Your man may be > good but he will have to grow into the job. We shall see he can step up a > notch. > > Katon Dawson, the guy he beat, runs an independent auto parts business when > he is not doing politics. The guy is a brilliant organizer and strong > organizational administrator. Dawson was not on a ego trip seeking national > recognition. He is just a natural organizer and effective administrative > leader who others suggested that he seek the RNC job. > > He got into the South Carolina Republican Chairman's job before his kids > came along and the business needed him. I was surprised he ran for the > national office because of his family. I believe he is giving up the South > Carolina chairmanship. While he said he supported Steele, I suspect that he > will turn to running his business now. He paid for his travels out of his > own pocket. I know his pocket is not deep. > > I do not expect him to run for any other public office. While he does well > speaking before a crowd, he is not the eloquent speaker that politicians > tend to be. He will do well in businesses because he has talent, integrity > and is a hard working good guy. > > Ed K > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1923 - Release Date: 01/29/09 > 07:13:00 > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From flybrad at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 08:37:51 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 07:37:51 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics and Economics and Free Trade Message-ID: <400985d70901310537i1cb2a212y8a6182883ee7cf6a@mail.gmail.com> Here's more on how foreign trading partners view what's happening with the current free trade aspects of the "stimulus" bill (attached from the London Times). We've been down this road before (Great Depression), and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, BUY AMERICAN sounds good but it doesn't work. Every where I travel I look to see what construction equipment is in use. During my first visit to Mainland China ten years ago, it was mostly Chinese built equipment augmented by lots, and lots, and lots of man powered wheelbarrows. Now days, you see Caterpillar, John Deere, all the Japanese manufacturers (which may be a CAT or DEERE joint venture) and others. My company's equipment on the Gulf Coast is a mix and match of Hyundai and New Holland (formerly Ford) and Kubota. You can't tell by the name where any single piece is made. Our trackhoe is Hyundai (Korean) bolted together outside Beijing with an American built drivetrain. Our backhoe, New Holland, is bolted together in Italy with mostly American parts, so on and so forth. Our Kubota tractor, early model, is purely Japanese but later models are assembled in Georgia (the state not the country). My sister-in-law was the former CFO for Asia for a Connecticut based mining truck manufacturer. You would be hard pressed to buy a 100% American piece of machinery or 100% pure Japanese, Chinese, any 'ese' you choose. To think that you can erect barriers around global trade without serious consequences is pure folly. But what would our Dear Leader know about business and economics? The man hasn't so much as run a hot-dog stand. Brad ------------------- >From The Times January 30, 2009 Obama's lethal game of beggar-thy-neighbour The 'Buy America' policy, proposed by the most protectionist Congress in memory, is a piece of disastrous economic folly Rosemary Righter The talk at Davos is grimmer this year than last - grimmer, but also better focused. The causes and extent of the financial crisis are better understood, though the hunt is still on for ways to stop the rot penetrating the global economy. It helps, too, that some fancy theories have bitten the dust. Last year's pet Davos theme, the supposed "decoupling" of China and other emerging titans from the American economy, the idea that they could thrive independently, has been badly mugged by reality. As the US went into a tailspin, so did Chinese exports. China's growth rate has halved, from more than 12 per cent in 2007 to just over 6 per cent; tens of millions have lost their jobs and China's (very nouveaux) rich have lost fortunes invested in collapsing housing and stock markets. Making the first visit by a Chinese leader to Davos, Wen Jiabao, China's Prime Minister, insisted that his country would hit 8 per cent growth this year through "hard work". But his main purpose was to showcase China's readiness to co-operate in a concerted rescue effort. If China's leaders ever bought that "decoupling" myth, they are by now badly rattled by the weight of evidence to the contrary. They know they need the US and Europe to recover, and fast, because China's thrifty consumers, most of whom have little disposable income, cannot begin to compensate for the slump in Western demand. They also know that the Obama Administration will not tolerate Chinese policies "that put US workers and businesses at a disadvantage": a conveniently elastic concept that could cover anything from foul play to cheaper wages. They have been told that the new Congress contains strong "anti-trade or anti-China constituencies". Mr Wen arrives in London tomorrow looking for a stalwart free-trade friend at court, prepared to help Beijing to weather coming storms in the US-China trade relationship. Mr Wen deserves a sympathetic ear - provided he accepts that alliances are mutual by nature and that China courts trouble by slipping export tax rebates to thousands of its manufacturers. If this year's Davos topic, "shaping the post-crisis world", is not to look ludicrously optimistic a year hence, markets must be kept open even in the teeth of massive trade imbalances. But in mid-crisis, where we actually are, it is hugely tempting to pull up the drawbridge. Growth indicators turn sourer with every week that passes. The IMF this week downgraded its 2009 global forecast - yet again - from 2.2 to 0.5 per cent. Its forecast, to cheer you up further, consigns Britain to the ninth circle of hell, with the economy contracting by 2.8 per cent this year, worse even than the eurozone's 2 per cent and far worse than the 1.6 per cent drop the IMF expects in the US. International trade, the great engine of the boom decades, will shrink this year for the first time since 1982. Politicians are turning protectionist on the sly, slipping manufacturers discriminatory subsidies, dressing up state aid as training, raising tariff barriers and inhibiting global capital flows by encouraging the banks that they now part-own to intervene to concentrate their lending "at home". Trade leadership will have to come from Britain because it will not come from the America of Barack Obama. There, "economic patriotism" is the new protectionism, prettily wrapped in stars and stripes but just as damaging to the world's prospects of recovery as was the 1930s variety. Is Mr Obama a protectionist? Instinctively, yes; he has never seen a free-trade deal he would actually vote for, and he talks about trade policy as a tool "to support good American jobs". But as the election campaign wore on, he toned down his invective against foreign competition, and, because his economic team is basically free trade, the jury is still out. The verdict, however, will be in very soon. At the behest of the most protectionist Congress in memory, Mr Obama may be about to repeat, at the dawn of his presidency, the same historic error that the much derided Herbert Hoover made just before quitting the White House in 1933. In the depths of the Great Depression, he signed into law the innocent-sounding Buy America Act. It required the US Government to use American suppliers in all public contracts. Less notorious than the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, "Buy America" did huge damage. It proved a disaster for US manufacturing exports and the global economy. Other governments followed suit, and it took decades to begin to reverse the closure of markets. Now, prodded by America's mighty steel lobby, a key congressional committee has voted, 55-0, to attach a still more rigorous "Buy America" clause to President Obama's stimulus package. It bars federal funding of any public projects "unless all of the iron and steel used is produced in the United States". The clause could be extended to asphalt, cement, heavy machinery, you name it. US dollars, the committee intones, must be used to create "American jobs in America, not Chinese jobs in China". Leave aside value for money. Pass over the detail that the US does not produce enough steel to meet domestic demand. Admit that, when economic activity evaporates as precipitately as it has this winter, "saving" jobs looks more important than ensuring long-term competitiveness. Admit, further, that all governments are in the hidden subsidy game right now, whether they boast about it, as in France, or deny it as stoutly as Lord Mandelson - whose "this is not a bailout" brings to mind Magritte's famous "ceci n'est pas une pipe" painting. Agree, finally, that when you are the newly elected US President and the money you are preparing to print runs into the trillions, the queue at the trough is bound to form pretty fast. But the scale of the temptation is precisely what makes Congress's populist "Buy America" rider an irresponsible, innumerate, pernicious bit of political and economic folly. If Mr Obama blocks this clause, he will anger the Left. If he does not, retaliation is inevitable. That will shut American workers out of "hundreds of billions of dollars of new business". Caterpillar, to take just one example, is actively bidding for big infrastructure projects in China; it reckons that "Buy America" would kill its prospects there. The truth politicians need to ponder is that the financial crisis has made sophisticates of us all. Most of us understand far more about how globalisation works, how the pieces hang together, than we did before everything went pear-shaped. We have made the connection between prosperity and globalisation - at the simplest level, that cheap T-shirts from Bangladesh leave us with more money for other things. We do worry about our ability to compete; we demand clear and impartial trade rules. But we can see how beggar-thy-neighbour protectionism creates more beggars - costing, not "saving", jobs. It is time the language of politics caught up with us. From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 09:22:44 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:22:44 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Brad -- You Called It Message-ID: <49845EB4.6010903@effros.com> Obama facing dilemma over protectionism in bill Jan 31, 8:01 AM (ET) By DESMOND BUTLER WASHINGTON (AP) - Less than two weeks into office, President Barack Obama faces a dilemma over protectionist provisions in a massive economic stimulus bill: Backing the measures could set off a trade war, while opposing them could trigger a backlash from his supporters. The choice involves "buy American" provisions attached to White House-backed stimulus legislation moving through Congress. They would require major public works projects to favor U.S. steel, iron and manufacturing over imports. Some Democratic lawmakers and interest groups allied to the president support the measures, but international allies and trading partners are warning that favoring U.S. companies would breach U.S. trade commitments and could set off tit-for-tat countermeasures around the world. The two largest U.S. trading partners already have spoken out against the measures. On Thursday, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper expressed concern and the European Union warned that it would not "stand idly by" if such measures were passed. On Friday, Brazil's president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva also criticized the measures. In November, world leaders, who gathered in Washington for the G-20 summit to consider how to right the global economy, pledged to avoid protectionism. But since taking office Jan. 20, Obama has said little on trade and has yet to nominate a trade representative. While campaigning, he argued that the Bush administration's strong support of free trade agreements should be moderated by including environmental and labor protections. "The jury is out on how this administration is going on trade policy," said Steven Schrage, an international business analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "This will be a key test." Asked about the protective provisions Friday, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs would say only that the administration was reviewing them. The provisions are likely to find support among Americans outraged that money from a stimulus package likely to top $800 billion could go to foreign competitors of U.S. firms. "I believe that when taxpayer dollars are used, they should support the things produced here at home," Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan, author of one of the provisions, said in a statement. Many analysts say the measures reflect the interests of small sectors over the larger economy, which could suffer from reduced trade and higher steel prices. "The result, according to my calculations, is that the U.S. will lose more jobs than it will gain," said Gary Hufbauer, an economist with the Peterson Institute for International Economics, a Washington think tank. "We are going to poison the wells of world commerce if we do this." The provisions are in a bill already approved by the House and a different version under consideration in the Senate. The Senate version states that none of the funds from the stimulus may be used for a project "unless all of the iron, steel and manufactured goods used in the projects are produced in the United States." The House version leaves out manufactured goods. Obama, who has argued that stimulus measures are urgent, is unlikely to block passage of any bill approved by the Congress. But he could press lawmakers to remove the protectionist measures before it is passed. "The problem is that Obama has not said anything yet," said Dan Ikenson of the libertarian Cato Institute. Both versions of the bill include language that would allow the president to waive the protectionist measures if he decides that would be in the economic interests of the United States. But passage of the measures could in itself unnerve trading partners and encourage other countries to take similar protective action. From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 09:39:01 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:39:01 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] What Do You Know About This Guy? Message-ID: <49846285.4010000@effros.com> Successor in Illinois Is the Anti-Blagojevich January 31, 2009 By SUSAN SAULNY (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/susan_saulny/index.html?inline=nyt-per) CHICAGO ? Temperate, unfussy and, at times, so independent that he can be out of the loop, the 41st governor of Illinois (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/illinois/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) could not be any more unlike the man he replaced ? the attention-loving showman, Rod R. Blagojevich (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/rod_r_blagojevich/index.html?inline=nyt-per), who was removed from office on Thursday. And that has a lot of people in Illinois breathing a sigh of relief. The new governor, Patrick J. Quinn (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/q/patrick_j_quinn/index.html?inline=nyt-per), was once known as more gadfly than political heavyweight. He eased his way into state politics more than 30 years ago on the dry work of petition drives (one led to a reduction in the size of the Illinois General Assembly), getting ahead despite shallow pockets and a disdain for the Democratic Party (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/d/democratic_party/index.html?inline=nyt-org) machine. Mr. Quinn, 60, can be so unassuming that he watched the inauguration of President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) in Washington crunched down on his knees so that people behind him could get a better view. When prone to boasting, which is not very often, it can be about miserly stuff, like staying in budget hotels and eating discount meals. His idea of a political stunt is walking more than 150 miles from the Mississippi River to Lake Michigan to raise awareness of health care needs. And with a hairline more John Lithgow (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/john_lithgow/index.html?inline=nyt-per) than Elvis, he does not even look the Blagojevich part. ?What you see is what you get,? said one of Mr. Quinn?s longtime allies, State Representative John Fritchey, a Democrat. ?He is an apolitical creature in a political world.? As a team, Mr. Quinn, who was until Thursday the lieutenant governor, and Mr. Blagojevich were always more odd couple than twins, thrown together in their first race for statewide office in 2002 after winning separate Democratic primaries. Shortly after their re-elections in 2006, they stopped speaking altogether. Already, in his first hours as governor, Mr. Quinn was charting his own course: in a series of interviews and public appearances he promised an honest, transparent and accessible administration. He reached out to include in his decision-making some of the state?s other elected officers who had long been shut out by Mr. Blagojevich. And he signed an executive order that made an official state entity out of a reform commission he established as lieutenant governor last month. Unlike Mr. Blagojevich, who disdained the capital and lived in Chicago, Mr. Quinn, a divorced father of two adult sons, plans to move into the governor?s mansion. That alone signals a whole new day. ?He?s the anti-Blagojevich, for sure,? said State Representative Jack D. Franks, a Democrat. Mr. Blagojevich is, apparently, not a fan. ?He?s going to raise taxes on people,? the former governor said of Mr. Quinn on Thursday after being ousted from office. ?He?s going to hurt people. And that?s part of the deal here. Get me out of the way. He?s going to raise the income tax on people by Memorial Day (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/m/memorial_day/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). And he?ll probably allow a sales tax on gas, too.? But even Mr. Blagojevich vouched for Mr. Quinn?s straight as an arrow reputation. Asked whether Mr. Quinn was corrupt, Mr. Blagojevich said simply, No. Still, this being Illinois, Mr. Quinn probably should not grow accustomed to such political generosity. His critics, particularly Republicans, have already pounced, angered that he changed his mind after initially supporting a special election to fill the United States Senate (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/senate/index.html?inline=nyt-org) seat now occupied by Roland W. Burris (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/roland_burris/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a Democrat whom Mr. Blagojevich appointed. Detractors also claim that Mr. Quinn was not vocal enough in denouncing Mr. Blagojevich before his arrest in early December on federal corruption charges. ?I think you can tell something about someone based on who they associate with,? said State Representative Roger Eddy, a Republican. ?There was an opportunity to make a bolder statement two years ago. That?s the part that really troubles me.? Although far from a political novice, Mr. Quinn is untested at meeting the kinds of challenges before him now: a crisis of confidence in government, a $4 billion budget gap, and a record level of unpaid bills to day care and health care providers and others. And he knows it: ?This is not a garden variety crisis,? Mr. Quinn said in an interview. ?It will be a test for all of us, starting with me, to keep our eyes on the common good.? Even members of Mr. Quinn?s party acknowledged that he has been something of an outsider over the years ? not someone who has a vast array of political allegiances and close allies. When the day is over, he likes to be alone, shooting hoops in the gym at a high school where one of his brothers is a basketball coach. At any other time, that isolation could cause a politician to falter, but in this moment, supporters say, there is a level of confidence in Mr. Quinn?s ability to calm nerves, get to work and restore some humility to the governor?s office. ?Historically, outsiders have not done well in our state,? Mr. Franks said. ?But I think Pat Quinn is going to get a lot done. It?s a much different climate now. This is a guy who brags about staying in Super 8s. Pat could care less about money.? It was money that is alleged to be at the root of Mr. Blagojevich?s problems. Federal agents arrested him at his home on Dec. 9 on charges that, among other things, Mr. Blagojevich had schemed to sell the Senate seat vacated by Mr. Obama. Since that morning, at 6:45, when Mr. Quinn said he got a call about the arrest, life has not been the same. ?It?s a bit surreal, when you think about it,? he said. A White Sox fan who was born in Chicago, Mr. Quinn has a law degree from Northwestern University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/northwestern_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and, years ago, used to teach tax law and consumer economics at two local colleges. Growing up, his mother was an assistant at a middle school. His father was a personnel director for a group of cemeteries. In 1980, one of Mr. Quinn?s petition drives ended the practice that allowed Illinois legislators to collect their entire salaries on the first day in office. Along with his other petitions, like the one that reduced the size of the legislature, he was not earning a lot of friends in state government. One afternoon in 1976, he visited the Capitol and took a seat in the gallery. ?They said, ?Up there in the gallery is that Pat Quinn,? ? he remembered one lawmaker saying. ?And they stood up and booed for three minutes. One guy called it a standing boo-vation.? A few years later, he was elected commissioner of the Cook County Board of Tax Appeals, his first elected office. He has served in a number of other positions, usually gravitating to veterans affairs, environmental and consumer protection issues. He was elected state treasurer in the early 1990s. Mr. Quinn said he was not sure whether he would run in 2010, when Mr. Blagojevich?s term ends. As it was, he had not decided what to do when his term as lieutenant governor was up. One thing he will not do, he said, is let his newfound popularity go to his head. ?You want to know my philosophy?? Mr. Quinn said. ?One day a peacock. The next day a feather duster.? From flybrad at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 09:39:44 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:39:44 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Brad -- You Called It In-Reply-To: <49845EB4.6010903@effros.com> References: <49845EB4.6010903@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901310639s2b4042e2u758c1f1d83d66abb@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Here's another (and quite funny) look at the same issue. You have to wonder where all "the best and the brightest" supposedly surrounding The One are on this issue? As Steyn correctly points out in the attached article, the world economy is far more interconnected now than it was in the 1930's. Look at the revenue sources for companies like Boeing, Caterpillar, GE, and yes FedEx, add-up their number of US based employees and the combined corporate and personal taxes they pay, and make a convincing argument that restraint of trade makes good economic and fiscal sense. It can't be done. Brad ---------------- Friday, January 30, 2009 Mark Steyn: Stimulated right into being another Europe Plan also could trigger protectionist backlash, just like during the Depression. Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House, is on TV explaining the (at this point the congregation shall fall to its knees and prostrate itself) "stimulus." "How," asks the lady from CBS, "does $335 million in STD prevention stimulate the economy?" "I'll tell you how," says Speaker Pelosi. "I'm a big believer in prevention. And we have, er? there is a part of the bill on the House side that is about prevention. It's about it being less expensive to the states to do these measures." Makes a lot of sense. If we have more STD prevention, it will be safer for loose women to go into bars and pick up feckless men, thus stimulating the critical beer and nuts and jukebox industries. To do this, we need trillion-dollar deficits, which our children and grandchildren will have to pay off, but, with sufficient investment in prevention measures, there won't be any children or grandchildren, so there's that problem solved. The more interviews Speaker Pelosi gives explaining how vital the STD industry is to restarting the U.S. economy, the more I find myself hearing "syphilis" every time she says "stimulus." In late September, America was showing the first signs of "primary stimulus" ? a few billion lesions popping up on the rarely glimpsed naughty bits of the economy: the subprime mortgage racket, the leverage kings. Now, the condition has metastasized in a mere four months into the advanced stages of "tertiary stimulus," with trillions of hideous, ever more inflamed pustules sprouting in every nook and cranny as the central nervous system of the body politic crumbles into total insanity ? until it seems entirely normal for the second in line of presidential succession to be on TV gibbering away about how vital the federalization of condom distribution is to economic recovery. The rules in this new "post-partisan" era are pretty simple: If the Democratic Party wants it, it's "stimulus." If the Republican Party opposes it, it's "politics" ? as in headlines like this: "Obama Urges GOP To Keep Politics To A Minimum On Stimulus." These are serious times: As the president says, it's the worst economic crisis since the Thirties. So politicians need to put politics behind them and immediately lavish $4.19 billion on his community-organizing pals at the highly inventive "voter registration" group ACORN for "neighborhood stabilization activities." "Neighborhood stabilization activities." That sounds like a line item from the Baath Party budget when Saddam sends the lads in to gas the Kurds. What does it mean in a nontotalitarian sense? Do you need a federally subsidized condom to do it? If so, will a pathetic $4.19 billion be enough? "Stimulus" comes from the verb "stimulare," which is Latin for "transfer massive sums of money from what remains of the dynamic sector of the economy to the special interests of the Democratic Party." No, hang on, my mistake. "Stimulare" means "to goad." And, on that front, the Democrats are doing an excellent job. They've managed to goad 58 percent of the American people into opposing the "stimulus" package. They've managed to goad all 117 Republicans in the House into unpacking their mothballed cojonesand voting against the bill. And they've managed to goad the rest of the world into ending the Obama honeymoon in nothing flat. Headline from the London Daily Telegraph: "U.S.-EU Trade War Looms As Barack Obama Bill Urges 'Buy American.'" That would be the provision in the Senate bill prohibiting any foreign-made goods from being used in "stimulus" projects. So, if you own a rubber plantation in Malaysia, and you're hoping for a piece of Nancy Pelosi's condom action, forget it. The EU Trade Commissioner is outraged at the swaggering cowboy Obama shooting from the hip and unilaterally banning European goods from American soil. But so are American companies such as General Electric. Bill Lane, an executive honcho with Caterpillar (the 10th-biggest U.S. investor in the United Kingdom), says, "We are students of history. A major reason a very deep recession turned into the Great Depression was the fact that countries turned inward." Ah, yes. The Buy American Act of 1933. How'd that work out? Even without Speaker Pelosi talking STDs on the evening news, there is danger here for the new administration. Setting aside the more messianic effusions ("We needed him. And out of that great need," gushed Maya Angelou, "Barack Obama came") as unbecoming to the freeborn citizens of a constitutional republic, it seems clear that large numbers of people voted for this president because they wanted something different, something other than "politics as usual." Not just something pseudo-different like the dreary maverickiness of John McCain "reaching across the aisle" (one of those dead phrases no one outside the Beltway gives a hoot about), but something really different. But the "stimulus" package is just politics as usual with a few extra zeros on the end. Will you notice anything? No. Don't get your hopes up. If you're broke now, you'll be broke in October. The Congressional Budget Office estimates only 25 percent of it will be spent by early next year. The other 75 percent is as stimulating as the gal in the Nancy Pelosi Pussycat Lounge telling you she had such a good time she's penciled in a second date for spring 2010. A third of all the spending won't come until after 2011. In a media age, politics is a battle of language, and "stimulus" is too good a word to cede to porked-up statist hacks. "Stimulus" has to stimulate ? i.e., it's short-term, like, say, an immediate cut in payroll taxes that will put real actual money in your pocket in next month's paycheck. That way, you don't need to wait for ACORN: You can start "stabilizing" your own "neighborhood" right now. But, if this fraudulent "stimulus" does pass, it will, in fact, destimulate, and much more than the disastrous protectionist measures of the Thirties did: Back then, America was dealing with a far less globalized economy, and with far fewer competitors. "In the long run, we are all dead," Lord Keynes, the newly fashionable economist, famously said. But, if this bill passes, in the medium term we're all dead. It's a massive expansion of the state in the same direction that has brought sclerosis to Europe. A report issued last week in London found that government spending now accounts for 49 percent of the UK economy ? and in the Celtic corners of the kingdom the state's share of the economy is way higher, from 71.6 percent in Wales to 77.6 percent in Northern Ireland. In the Western world, countries that were once the crucible of freedom are slipping remorselessly into a thinly disguised serfdom in which an ever higher proportion of your assets are annexed by the state as superlandlord. Big government is where nations go to die ? not in Keynes' "long run," but sooner than you think. From flybrad at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 09:53:21 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:53:21 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] What Do You Know About This Guy? In-Reply-To: <49846285.4010000@effros.com> References: <49846285.4010000@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901310653k7a535a00p188beff2ee1a00ba@mail.gmail.com> Bill, No clue! All I know is he was an aide to Gov. Dan Walker. I accidentally tin-canned a dog in front of Gov. Walker one time in the early 70's, so who knows, maybe I've met the guy before. Spence and I are headed for the hangar. I'll make some calls and do some homework later. Brad On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:39 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > Successor in Illinois Is the Anti-Blagojevich > > January 31, 2009 > > By SUSAN SAULNY > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/susan_saulny/index.html?inline=nyt-per) > > CHICAGO ? Temperate, unfussy and, at times, so independent that he can > be out of the loop, the 41st governor of Illinois > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/illinois/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) > could not be any more unlike the man he replaced ? the attention-loving > showman, Rod R. Blagojevich > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/rod_r_blagojevich/index.html?inline=nyt-per), > who was removed from office on Thursday. > > And that has a lot of people in Illinois breathing a sigh of relief. > > The new governor, Patrick J. Quinn > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/q/patrick_j_quinn/index.html?inline=nyt-per), > was once known as more gadfly than political heavyweight. He eased his > way into state politics more than 30 years ago on the dry work of > petition drives (one led to a reduction in the size of the Illinois > General Assembly), getting ahead despite shallow pockets and a disdain > for the Democratic Party > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/d/democratic_party/index.html?inline=nyt-org) > machine. > > Mr. Quinn, 60, can be so unassuming that he watched the inauguration of > President Obama > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) > in Washington crunched down on his knees so that people behind him could > get a better view. When prone to boasting, which is not very often, it > can be about miserly stuff, like staying in budget hotels and eating > discount meals. > > His idea of a political stunt is walking more than 150 miles from the > Mississippi River to Lake Michigan to raise awareness of health care > needs. And with a hairline more John Lithgow > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/john_lithgow/index.html?inline=nyt-per) > than Elvis, he does not even look the Blagojevich part. > > "What you see is what you get," said one of Mr. Quinn's longtime allies, > State Representative John Fritchey, a Democrat. "He is an apolitical > creature in a political world." > > As a team, Mr. Quinn, who was until Thursday the lieutenant governor, > and Mr. Blagojevich were always more odd couple than twins, thrown > together in their first race for statewide office in 2002 after winning > separate Democratic primaries. Shortly after their re-elections in 2006, > they stopped speaking altogether. > > Already, in his first hours as governor, Mr. Quinn was charting his own > course: in a series of interviews and public appearances he promised an > honest, transparent and accessible administration. He reached out to > include in his decision-making some of the state's other elected > officers who had long been shut out by Mr. Blagojevich. And he signed an > executive order that made an official state entity out of a reform > commission he established as lieutenant governor last month. > > Unlike Mr. Blagojevich, who disdained the capital and lived in Chicago, > Mr. Quinn, a divorced father of two adult sons, plans to move into the > governor's mansion. That alone signals a whole new day. > > "He's the anti-Blagojevich, for sure," said State Representative Jack D. > Franks, a Democrat. > > Mr. Blagojevich is, apparently, not a fan. > > "He's going to raise taxes on people," the former governor said of Mr. > Quinn on Thursday after being ousted from office. "He's going to hurt > people. And that's part of the deal here. Get me out of the way. He's > going to raise the income tax on people by Memorial Day > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/m/memorial_day/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). > And he'll probably allow a sales tax on gas, too." > > But even Mr. Blagojevich vouched for Mr. Quinn's straight as an arrow > reputation. Asked whether Mr. Quinn was corrupt, Mr. Blagojevich said > simply, No. > > Still, this being Illinois, Mr. Quinn probably should not grow > accustomed to such political generosity. > > His critics, particularly Republicans, have already pounced, angered > that he changed his mind after initially supporting a special election > to fill the United States Senate > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/senate/index.html?inline=nyt-org) > seat now occupied by Roland W. Burris > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/roland_burris/index.html?inline=nyt-per), > a Democrat whom Mr. Blagojevich appointed. > > Detractors also claim that Mr. Quinn was not vocal enough in denouncing > Mr. Blagojevich before his arrest in early December on federal > corruption charges. > > "I think you can tell something about someone based on who they > associate with," said State Representative Roger Eddy, a Republican. > "There was an opportunity to make a bolder statement two years ago. > That's the part that really troubles me." > > Although far from a political novice, Mr. Quinn is untested at meeting > the kinds of challenges before him now: a crisis of confidence in > government, a $4 billion budget gap, and a record level of unpaid bills > to day care and health care providers and others. > > And he knows it: "This is not a garden variety crisis," Mr. Quinn said > in an interview. "It will be a test for all of us, starting with me, to > keep our eyes on the common good." > > Even members of Mr. Quinn's party acknowledged that he has been > something of an outsider over the years ? not someone who has a vast > array of political allegiances and close allies. When the day is over, > he likes to be alone, shooting hoops in the gym at a high school where > one of his brothers is a basketball coach. > > At any other time, that isolation could cause a politician to falter, > but in this moment, supporters say, there is a level of confidence in > Mr. Quinn's ability to calm nerves, get to work and restore some > humility to the governor's office. > > "Historically, outsiders have not done well in our state," Mr. Franks > said. "But I think Pat Quinn is going to get a lot done. It's a much > different climate now. This is a guy who brags about staying in Super > 8s. Pat could care less about money." > > It was money that is alleged to be at the root of Mr. Blagojevich's > problems. Federal agents arrested him at his home on Dec. 9 on charges > that, among other things, Mr. Blagojevich had schemed to sell the Senate > seat vacated by Mr. Obama. > > Since that morning, at 6:45, when Mr. Quinn said he got a call about the > arrest, life has not been the same. > > "It's a bit surreal, when you think about it," he said. > > A White Sox fan who was born in Chicago, Mr. Quinn has a law degree from > Northwestern University > (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/northwestern_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) > and, years ago, used to teach tax law and consumer economics at two > local colleges. Growing up, his mother was an assistant at a middle > school. His father was a personnel director for a group of cemeteries. > > In 1980, one of Mr. Quinn's petition drives ended the practice that > allowed Illinois legislators to collect their entire salaries on the > first day in office. Along with his other petitions, like the one that > reduced the size of the legislature, he was not earning a lot of friends > in state government. > > One afternoon in 1976, he visited the Capitol and took a seat in the > gallery. > > "They said, 'Up there in the gallery is that Pat Quinn,' " he remembered > one lawmaker saying. "And they stood up and booed for three minutes. One > guy called it a standing boo-vation." > > A few years later, he was elected commissioner of the Cook County Board > of Tax Appeals, his first elected office. He has served in a number of > other positions, usually gravitating to veterans affairs, environmental > and consumer protection issues. He was elected state treasurer in the > early 1990s. > > Mr. Quinn said he was not sure whether he would run in 2010, when Mr. > Blagojevich's term ends. As it was, he had not decided what to do when > his term as lieutenant governor was up. > > One thing he will not do, he said, is let his newfound popularity go to > his head. > > "You want to know my philosophy?" Mr. Quinn said. "One day a peacock. > The next day a feather duster." > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > From sanderico1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 09:53:33 2009 From: sanderico1 at gmail.com (Rik Sandberg) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:53:33 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Politics and Economics and Free Trade In-Reply-To: <400985d70901310537i1cb2a212y8a6182883ee7cf6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901310537i1cb2a212y8a6182883ee7cf6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498465ED.5010709@gmail.com> Brad, Agreed, he doesn't know squat about business ..... other than what the unions have told him. But he does know that those unions paid him ALOT of money. Rik "There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe." ... Robert Heinlein Brad Haslett wrote: > Here's more on how foreign trading partners view what's happening with > the current free trade aspects of the "stimulus" bill (attached from > the London Times). We've been down this road before (Great > Depression), and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, BUY > AMERICAN sounds good but it doesn't work. Every where I travel I look > to see what construction equipment is in use. During my first visit > to Mainland China ten years ago, it was mostly Chinese built equipment > augmented by lots, and lots, and lots of man powered wheelbarrows. > Now days, you see Caterpillar, John Deere, all the Japanese > manufacturers (which may be a CAT or DEERE joint venture) and others. > My company's equipment on the Gulf Coast is a mix and match of > Hyundai and New Holland (formerly Ford) and Kubota. You can't tell by > the name where any single piece is made. Our trackhoe is Hyundai > (Korean) bolted together outside Beijing with an American built > drivetrain. Our backhoe, New Holland, is bolted together in Italy > with mostly American parts, so on and so forth. Our Kubota tractor, > early model, is purely Japanese but later models are assembled in > Georgia (the state not the country). My sister-in-law was the former > CFO for Asia for a Connecticut based mining truck manufacturer. You > would be hard pressed to buy a 100% American piece of machinery or > 100% pure Japanese, Chinese, any 'ese' you choose. To think that you > can erect barriers around global trade without serious consequences is > pure folly. But what would our Dear Leader know about business and > economics? The man hasn't so much as run a hot-dog stand. > > Brad > > ------------------- > > >From The Times > January 30, 2009 > Obama's lethal game of beggar-thy-neighbour > The 'Buy America' policy, proposed by the most protectionist Congress > in memory, is a piece of disastrous economic folly > Rosemary Righter > > The talk at Davos is grimmer this year than last - grimmer, but also > better focused. The causes and extent of the financial crisis are > better understood, though the hunt is still on for ways to stop the > rot penetrating the global economy. It helps, too, that some fancy > theories have bitten the dust. > > Last year's pet Davos theme, the supposed "decoupling" of China and > other emerging titans from the American economy, the idea that they > could thrive independently, has been badly mugged by reality. As the > US went into a tailspin, so did Chinese exports. China's growth rate > has halved, from more than 12 per cent in 2007 to just over 6 per > cent; tens of millions have lost their jobs and China's (very > nouveaux) rich have lost fortunes invested in collapsing housing and > stock markets. > > Making the first visit by a Chinese leader to Davos, Wen Jiabao, > China's Prime Minister, insisted that his country would hit 8 per cent > growth this year through "hard work". But his main purpose was to > showcase China's readiness to co-operate in a concerted rescue effort. > If China's leaders ever bought that "decoupling" myth, they are by now > badly rattled by the weight of evidence to the contrary. They know > they need the US and Europe to recover, and fast, because China's > thrifty consumers, most of whom have little disposable income, cannot > begin to compensate for the slump in Western demand. > > They also know that the Obama Administration will not tolerate Chinese > policies "that put US workers and businesses at a disadvantage": a > conveniently elastic concept that could cover anything from foul play > to cheaper wages. They have been told that the new Congress contains > strong "anti-trade or anti-China constituencies". Mr Wen arrives in > London tomorrow looking for a stalwart free-trade friend at court, > prepared to help Beijing to weather coming storms in the US-China > trade relationship. > > Mr Wen deserves a sympathetic ear - provided he accepts that alliances > are mutual by nature and that China courts trouble by slipping export > tax rebates to thousands of its manufacturers. If this year's Davos > topic, "shaping the post-crisis world", is not to look ludicrously > optimistic a year hence, markets must be kept open even in the teeth > of massive trade imbalances. But in mid-crisis, where we actually are, > it is hugely tempting to pull up the drawbridge. > > Growth indicators turn sourer with every week that passes. The IMF > this week downgraded its 2009 global forecast - yet again - from 2.2 > to 0.5 per cent. Its forecast, to cheer you up further, consigns > Britain to the ninth circle of hell, with the economy contracting by > 2.8 per cent this year, worse even than the eurozone's 2 per cent and > far worse than the 1.6 per cent drop the IMF expects in the US. > International trade, the great engine of the boom decades, will shrink > this year for the first time since 1982. > > Politicians are turning protectionist on the sly, slipping > manufacturers discriminatory subsidies, dressing up state aid as > training, raising tariff barriers and inhibiting global capital flows > by encouraging the banks that they now part-own to intervene to > concentrate their lending "at home". > > Trade leadership will have to come from Britain because it will not > come from the America of Barack Obama. There, "economic patriotism" is > the new protectionism, prettily wrapped in stars and stripes but just > as damaging to the world's prospects of recovery as was the 1930s > variety. > > Is Mr Obama a protectionist? Instinctively, yes; he has never seen a > free-trade deal he would actually vote for, and he talks about trade > policy as a tool "to support good American jobs". But as the election > campaign wore on, he toned down his invective against foreign > competition, and, because his economic team is basically free trade, > the jury is still out. > > The verdict, however, will be in very soon. At the behest of the most > protectionist Congress in memory, Mr Obama may be about to repeat, at > the dawn of his presidency, the same historic error that the much > derided Herbert Hoover made just before quitting the White House in > 1933. In the depths of the Great Depression, he signed into law the > innocent-sounding Buy America Act. It required the US Government to > use American suppliers in all public contracts. Less notorious than > the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, "Buy America" did huge damage. It proved > a disaster for US manufacturing exports and the global economy. Other > governments followed suit, and it took decades to begin to reverse the > closure of markets. > > Now, prodded by America's mighty steel lobby, a key congressional > committee has voted, 55-0, to attach a still more rigorous "Buy > America" clause to President Obama's stimulus package. It bars federal > funding of any public projects "unless all of the iron and steel used > is produced in the United States". The clause could be extended to > asphalt, cement, heavy machinery, you name it. US dollars, the > committee intones, must be used to create "American jobs in America, > not Chinese jobs in China". > > Leave aside value for money. Pass over the detail that the US does not > produce enough steel to meet domestic demand. Admit that, when > economic activity evaporates as precipitately as it has this winter, > "saving" jobs looks more important than ensuring long-term > competitiveness. Admit, further, that all governments are in the > hidden subsidy game right now, whether they boast about it, as in > France, or deny it as stoutly as Lord Mandelson - whose "this is not a > bailout" brings to mind Magritte's famous "ceci n'est pas une pipe" > painting. > > Agree, finally, that when you are the newly elected US President and > the money you are preparing to print runs into the trillions, the > queue at the trough is bound to form pretty fast. But the scale of the > temptation is precisely what makes Congress's populist "Buy America" > rider an irresponsible, innumerate, pernicious bit of political and > economic folly. > > If Mr Obama blocks this clause, he will anger the Left. If he does > not, retaliation is inevitable. That will shut American workers out of > "hundreds of billions of dollars of new business". Caterpillar, to > take just one example, is actively bidding for big infrastructure > projects in China; it reckons that "Buy America" would kill its > prospects there. > > The truth politicians need to ponder is that the financial crisis has > made sophisticates of us all. Most of us understand far more about how > globalisation works, how the pieces hang together, than we did before > everything went pear-shaped. We have made the connection between > prosperity and globalisation - at the simplest level, that cheap > T-shirts from Bangladesh leave us with more money for other things. We > do worry about our ability to compete; we demand clear and impartial > trade rules. But we can see how beggar-thy-neighbour protectionism > creates more beggars - costing, not "saving", jobs. It is time the > language of politics caught up with us. > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 09:55:28 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:55:28 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Ben Stein on Pork In-Reply-To: <400985d70901310342n39427f2cjffb6ef76ff2c352f@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901300555h75c6aea2i76f4e75c37fd623d@mail.gmail.com> <49830BBC.7030105@effros.com> <400985d70901300718k4be7c84brade9d10fdb6f9618@mail.gmail.com> <49832832.70709@effros.com> <400985d70901310342n39427f2cjffb6ef76ff2c352f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49846660.5030108@effros.com> Brad, The bill is supposed to be a Christmas Present for everyone in the US from the rest of the world. Of course, to quote the old tagline: "Time will bill you later." Stein's central point, that it's foolish to spend this much money this fast in a bill no one even has time to read, is clearly valid. They're going to pass this turkey, and they're going to regret it. No one will be satisfied with the outcome. Everybody is going to wind up poorer. The poor think they'll get the money the rich had, but they will soon enough discover they are mistaken. Rik, and I will learn enough about that bill to make money from it. You are welcome to join us. Thanks for doing the research. Bill Brad Haslett wrote: > Bill, > > It should be obvious by now that this bill is nothing but a Christmas > list for the left. Here's another hidden "gem" in the bill - > > http://tinyurl.com/bv8den > > The last I read, it takes about 4 years of driving to recoup the > energy costs of scrapping a gas guzzler versus the energy used in > producing a Prius or other high-mileage car. Talk about meddling in > markets! > > This bill needs to be stopped. There may be a useful item or two > buried in the 700 or so pages that is worthwhile, but passing this > thing wholesale is dangerous. As a partisan, I'm tempted to say, "go > ahead and pass it, you just sealed your fate in he 2010 elections". > But, I'm more worried about my country than politics. > > Brad > > 2009/1/30 Bill Effros : > >> Brad, >> >> This stuff is dumb, no doubt about it. >> >> And it won't work. >> >> Just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. >> >> B. >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> More bad "stuff" in the so-called Stimulus Bill. Remember, it was the >> Smoot-Hawley Tarrif under Hoover that accelerated us into the Great >> Depression. Obama is owned by the unions and this is the first of many >> "bones" he's throwing their way. The restraint of trade provisions in >> this bill are the same as Smoot-Hawley. Our biggest creditors are >> China, Japan, and Great Britain. What's going to happen when they >> pick-up their bat, and ball, and glove and leave the field? The One >> is totally clueless - I'm not just saying that as a partisan, this is >> scary shit! His wife has him by the balls at home and Nancy has his >> balls at the office. Is there anyone out there with any sanity? >> Hello! Anyone? >> >> Brad >> >> ---------------- >> >> US-EU trade war looms as Barack Obama bill urges 'Buy American' >> >> The prospect of a trade war between the US and Europe is looming after >> "Buy American" provisions were added to President Barack Obama's $820 >> billion (?573 billion) stimulus package. >> >> >> By Alex Spillius in Washington >> Last Updated: 12:27AM GMT 30 Jan 2009 >> >> >> The EU trade commissioner vowed to fight back after the bill passed in >> the House of Representatives late on Wednesday included a ban on most >> purchases of foreign steel and iron used in infrastructure projects. >> >> The Senate's version of the legislation, which will be debated early >> next week, goes even further, requiring that any projects related to >> the stimulus use only American-made equipment and goods. >> >> The inclusion of protectionist measures has quickly raised hackles in >> Europe. >> >> Catherine Ashton, the EU trade commissioner, said: "We are looking at >> the situation. The one thing we can be absolutely certain about, is if >> a bill is passed which prohibits the sale or purchase of European >> goods on American territory, that is something we will not stand idly >> by and ignore." >> >> Despite the parlous state of the US economy, some major American >> firms, including General Electric, are also opposed to the Buy >> American stipulations, fearing reprisals from overseas and further >> damage to the global economy. >> >> Bill Lane, government affairs director for Caterpillar, which has just >> laid off nearly a fifth of its 112,000 work force and is the tenth >> largest US investor in Britain, warned it was a dangerous step. >> >> He said: "We are the first to recognise that if the US embraces Buy >> American then the whole notion of buying national will mestastasize >> and limit our ability to take part in overseas projects. >> >> "We are students of history. A major reason a very deep recession >> turned into the Great Depression was the fact that countries turned >> inward." >> >> Countries in Europe and Asia are planning major injections of cash >> into infrastructure to boost their economies, and US firms don't want >> to be left out of potentially lucrative contracts. >> >> "We would be a primary beneficiary of any type of infrastructure >> project in the US, but at the same time we are one of the country's >> largest exporters," he added. >> >> Some industrial giants also question whether the Buy American laws >> would contravene US obligations reached in various World Trade >> Organisation agreements. >> >> They also point to the 1930s as a lesson in the perils of >> protectionism. Congress passed the Buy American Act in 1933, allowing >> the government to favour US products for government contracts. >> Restrictions were eased in 1982, but the plans currently working their >> way through Congress would bring the new law close to its forebear of >> 75 years ago. >> >> Foreign steel would only be allowed if using US steel drove up the >> cost of a project by more than 25 per cent, while the bill passed on >> Wednesday required that the Transportation and Security Administration >> use American-made uniforms. >> >> Supporters of Buy American argue that tighter measures are required to >> protect American jobs and point out that the US steel industry is >> losing out to Chinese imports subsidised by Beijing. >> >> "As we are losing jobs in record numbers, we obviously need to devote >> these funds to direct creation of American jobs," said Sherrod Brown, >> a senator from Ohio, part of the struggling industrial heartland. >> >> Unemployment in his state has risen to 7.6 per cent, up from 5.8 per >> cent in December 2007. >> >> "To do that, we must ensure that federal funds are used to buy >> American products and to help promote manufacturing in our country. >> Ultimately I want taxpayers to know where their dollars are being >> spent. Are they being spent on American products or products coming >> from Germany or Mexico?" >> >> Mr Obama has sent mixed signals on free trade throughout his campaign >> and the early days of his presidency. He has argued that the North >> American Free Trade should be recalibrated in favour of American >> workers, but has stressed the need for a co-operative international >> approach to the economic crisis. >> >> Though fellow Democrats in the house and senate drafted their versions >> of the stimulus bill, the new president and his advisers had major >> input and influence over the contents. >> >> The bill failed to win a single Republican vote in the house, despite >> a major charm offensive by Mr Obama, which included a visit to >> Congress and an invitation to Congressional leaders to drinks at the >> White House. >> >> It passed thanks to the Democrats' healthy majority, but the senate >> bill could see a tougher fight. Each rendering of the bill will be >> merged at a process known as conference, before being returned to both >> chambers for a new vote. The president has asked that a final bill be >> presented to him by February 13. >> >> >> >> >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4389597/US-EU-trade-war-looms-as-Barack-Obama-bill-urges-Buy-American.html >> Related Content >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Bill Effros wrote: >> >> >> Brad--Dead horse. >> >> My question is "Why does everyone keep throwing in the 'recession might >> be over' canard?" >> >> This country is going through a fundamental restructuring. >> >> I doubt we will ever go back to the days where everyone thought they >> would earn above average incomes. >> >> There will be a lot of flailing while people settle into a different >> standard of living than they thought the future would bring. >> >> Wealth is not being redistributed, it is simply being reduced for almost >> everyone. >> >> Bill Effros >> >> >> >> Brad Haslett wrote: >> >> >> Stein remains one of my favorite financial and government observers. >> Here is his latest. >> >> Brad >> >> -------------- >> >> A Bleak Day >> >> By Ben Stein on 1.29.09 @ 9:31AM >> >> I love this. The new kind of politics of hope. Eight hours of debate >> in the HR to pass a bill spending $820 billion, or roughly $102 >> billion per hour of debate. >> >> Only ten per cent of the "stimulus" to be spent on 2009. >> >> Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members >> of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and >> municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions. >> >> This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven >> days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one >> member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, >> it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama >> to have read the entire bill. >> >> For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in >> the United States roughly $75,000. >> >> We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing >> through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly >> $300,000. >> >> There has been pork barrel politics since there has been politics. The >> scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and >> no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. >> >> Further, no one can be sure that we are not already at the >> trough/inflection point of the recession such that this money will be >> spent mostly after the recovery is well under way. >> >> How long until the debt incurred under this program is so immense that >> it causes a downgrade in the sovereign debt of the USA? What happens >> to us then? >> >> This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, >> far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect >> America. This is more than the pork barrel. This is a coup for the >> constituencies of the party in power and against the idea of a >> responsible government itself. A bleak day. >> >> Unfortunately, it is only the latest in a long series of such days >> stretching across decades of rule by both parties, to the point where >> truly responsible government is only a distant echo of our forgotten >> ancestors. >> >> Letter to the Editor >> StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook >> >> Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly >> Hills and Malibu. He writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The >> American Spectator. >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090131/9f8dcd2a/attachment.html From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 10:11:09 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:11:09 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] RNC Chairman In-Reply-To: <400985d70901310439o22580e85k37d00251448924e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <50932F346B54460CA95F98FF5B13FCD1@YOURB88038198E> <400985d70901310439o22580e85k37d00251448924e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49846A0D.20709@effros.com> either or neither nor Obama is President because of his skin color. I think it was smart for Republicans to select an RNC Chairman based on skin color to show they get it, and neutralize this issue. Putting ideology aside, it is important for Republicans to establish themselves as a counter-force to Democrats. Democrats were supported by a wide range of ideologies that can't hold together. Things will go from bad to worse, and Republicans must be able to show they strongly opposed some of the worst ideas. There will be plenty to pick from. Republicans, also, are supported by a wide range of ideologies, and they will do better if they understand this, instead of fighting ideological battles with themselves. Bill Effros Brad Haslett wrote: > Ed, > > The most salient criticism's made by Steele's detractors are precisely > those virtues you attributed to Blackwell and Dawson, ie, Steele is a > moderate and lacks organizational skills. Mr. Steele is a dynamic > speaker and obviously (at least to me) a very intelligent man. > > If he turns out to be a RINO, or a McCain style Democrat-lite, my > enthusiasm and support for him will fade quickly. We'll see. I hope > he grows into the job as well, he's got his work cut out for him. > Perhaps Blackwell can help keep him on the Conservative path and > Dawson and will lend his management skills. The GOP has an exciting > crop of candidates in the wings - Palin, Jindal, Cantor just to name > three. The more I watch Cantor is action the more I like the guy. > > I called my Congressman Marsh Blackburn the day of the House vote and > her staffer assured me she would vote against the "stimulus" package. > I've since e-mailed Senators Alexander and Corker and told both I > would neither "forgive or forget" any Republican who voted for it in > the Senate. This bill is horrible legislation and has nothing to do > with getting the economy back on its feet. > > Brad > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Ed Kroposki wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> I have heard Ken Blackwell speak and Steele speak. Blackwell was much more >> a conservative and extolled American traditional values. Your man may be >> good but he will have to grow into the job. We shall see he can step up a >> notch. >> >> Katon Dawson, the guy he beat, runs an independent auto parts business when >> he is not doing politics. The guy is a brilliant organizer and strong >> organizational administrator. Dawson was not on a ego trip seeking national >> recognition. He is just a natural organizer and effective administrative >> leader who others suggested that he seek the RNC job. >> >> He got into the South Carolina Republican Chairman's job before his kids >> came along and the business needed him. I was surprised he ran for the >> national office because of his family. I believe he is giving up the South >> Carolina chairmanship. While he said he supported Steele, I suspect that he >> will turn to running his business now. He paid for his travels out of his >> own pocket. I know his pocket is not deep. >> >> I do not expect him to run for any other public office. While he does well >> speaking before a crowd, he is not the eloquent speaker that politicians >> tend to be. He will do well in businesses because he has talent, integrity >> and is a hard working good guy. >> >> Ed K >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1923 - Release Date: 01/29/09 >> 07:13:00 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SwiftwaterGazette mailing list >> SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com >> http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/pipermail/swiftwatergazette/attachments/20090131/4bfe2598/attachment-0001.html From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 11:21:54 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:21:54 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Buy American! In-Reply-To: <400985d70901310537i1cb2a212y8a6182883ee7cf6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <400985d70901310537i1cb2a212y8a6182883ee7cf6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49847AA2.80206@effros.com> Brad, I probably agree with you on free trade, I certainly have profited from it. But I'm not really sure what I believe. This is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. Pat Buchanan strongly opposes free trade, and always has. The rest of the world is going to stop lending us money, so we won't be able to buy their goods and services. Now what? We can't make that stuff as well as they can make it, and they charge less for what are now superior products. Zillions of jobs are going to be lost. People will always need truck drivers like you and Rik. But they won't have enough money to have other people paint their toenails. We can no longer make steel, or cars, or appliances, or computers, or stereo equipment, or even knick-knacks anymore. How do we regain that ability at a time when we can't do it well, and we can't do it cheaply? How do we retain our standard of living if fewer and fewer people can earn a living to pay for "stuff"? I have absolutely no answer for this question, but "How do we get out of this mess?" It is not sufficient to say "My opponent's idea won't work." B. Brad Haslett wrote: > Here's more on how foreign trading partners view what's happening with > the current free trade aspects of the "stimulus" bill (attached from > the London Times). We've been down this road before (Great > Depression), and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, BUY > AMERICAN sounds good but it doesn't work. Every where I travel I look > to see what construction equipment is in use. During my first visit > to Mainland China ten years ago, it was mostly Chinese built equipment > augmented by lots, and lots, and lots of man powered wheelbarrows. > Now days, you see Caterpillar, John Deere, all the Japanese > manufacturers (which may be a CAT or DEERE joint venture) and others. > My company's equipment on the Gulf Coast is a mix and match of > Hyundai and New Holland (formerly Ford) and Kubota. You can't tell by > the name where any single piece is made. Our trackhoe is Hyundai > (Korean) bolted together outside Beijing with an American built > drivetrain. Our backhoe, New Holland, is bolted together in Italy > with mostly American parts, so on and so forth. Our Kubota tractor, > early model, is purely Japanese but later models are assembled in > Georgia (the state not the country). My sister-in-law was the former > CFO for Asia for a Connecticut based mining truck manufacturer. You > would be hard pressed to buy a 100% American piece of machinery or > 100% pure Japanese, Chinese, any 'ese' you choose. To think that you > can erect barriers around global trade without serious consequences is > pure folly. But what would our Dear Leader know about business and > economics? The man hasn't so much as run a hot-dog stand. > > Brad > > ------------------- > > >From The Times > January 30, 2009 > Obama's lethal game of beggar-thy-neighbour > The 'Buy America' policy, proposed by the most protectionist Congress > in memory, is a piece of disastrous economic folly > Rosemary Righter > > The talk at Davos is grimmer this year than last - grimmer, but also > better focused. The causes and extent of the financial crisis are > better understood, though the hunt is still on for ways to stop the > rot penetrating the global economy. It helps, too, that some fancy > theories have bitten the dust. > > Last year's pet Davos theme, the supposed "decoupling" of China and > other emerging titans from the American economy, the idea that they > could thrive independently, has been badly mugged by reality. As the > US went into a tailspin, so did Chinese exports. China's growth rate > has halved, from more than 12 per cent in 2007 to just over 6 per > cent; tens of millions have lost their jobs and China's (very > nouveaux) rich have lost fortunes invested in collapsing housing and > stock markets. > > Making the first visit by a Chinese leader to Davos, Wen Jiabao, > China's Prime Minister, insisted that his country would hit 8 per cent > growth this year through "hard work". But his main purpose was to > showcase China's readiness to co-operate in a concerted rescue effort. > If China's leaders ever bought that "decoupling" myth, they are by now > badly rattled by the weight of evidence to the contrary. They know > they need the US and Europe to recover, and fast, because China's > thrifty consumers, most of whom have little disposable income, cannot > begin to compensate for the slump in Western demand. > > They also know that the Obama Administration will not tolerate Chinese > policies "that put US workers and businesses at a disadvantage": a > conveniently elastic concept that could cover anything from foul play > to cheaper wages. They have been told that the new Congress contains > strong "anti-trade or anti-China constituencies". Mr Wen arrives in > London tomorrow looking for a stalwart free-trade friend at court, > prepared to help Beijing to weather coming storms in the US-China > trade relationship. > > Mr Wen deserves a sympathetic ear - provided he accepts that alliances > are mutual by nature and that China courts trouble by slipping export > tax rebates to thousands of its manufacturers. If this year's Davos > topic, "shaping the post-crisis world", is not to look ludicrously > optimistic a year hence, markets must be kept open even in the teeth > of massive trade imbalances. But in mid-crisis, where we actually are, > it is hugely tempting to pull up the drawbridge. > > Growth indicators turn sourer with every week that passes. The IMF > this week downgraded its 2009 global forecast - yet again - from 2.2 > to 0.5 per cent. Its forecast, to cheer you up further, consigns > Britain to the ninth circle of hell, with the economy contracting by > 2.8 per cent this year, worse even than the eurozone's 2 per cent and > far worse than the 1.6 per cent drop the IMF expects in the US. > International trade, the great engine of the boom decades, will shrink > this year for the first time since 1982. > > Politicians are turning protectionist on the sly, slipping > manufacturers discriminatory subsidies, dressing up state aid as > training, raising tariff barriers and inhibiting global capital flows > by encouraging the banks that they now part-own to intervene to > concentrate their lending "at home". > > Trade leadership will have to come from Britain because it will not > come from the America of Barack Obama. There, "economic patriotism" is > the new protectionism, prettily wrapped in stars and stripes but just > as damaging to the world's prospects of recovery as was the 1930s > variety. > > Is Mr Obama a protectionist? Instinctively, yes; he has never seen a > free-trade deal he would actually vote for, and he talks about trade > policy as a tool "to support good American jobs". But as the election > campaign wore on, he toned down his invective against foreign > competition, and, because his economic team is basically free trade, > the jury is still out. > > The verdict, however, will be in very soon. At the behest of the most > protectionist Congress in memory, Mr Obama may be about to repeat, at > the dawn of his presidency, the same historic error that the much > derided Herbert Hoover made just before quitting the White House in > 1933. In the depths of the Great Depression, he signed into law the > innocent-sounding Buy America Act. It required the US Government to > use American suppliers in all public contracts. Less notorious than > the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, "Buy America" did huge damage. It proved > a disaster for US manufacturing exports and the global economy. Other > governments followed suit, and it took decades to begin to reverse the > closure of markets. > > Now, prodded by America's mighty steel lobby, a key congressional > committee has voted, 55-0, to attach a still more rigorous "Buy > America" clause to President Obama's stimulus package. It bars federal > funding of any public projects "unless all of the iron and steel used > is produced in the United States". The clause could be extended to > asphalt, cement, heavy machinery, you name it. US dollars, the > committee intones, must be used to create "American jobs in America, > not Chinese jobs in China". > > Leave aside value for money. Pass over the detail that the US does not > produce enough steel to meet domestic demand. Admit that, when > economic activity evaporates as precipitately as it has this winter, > "saving" jobs looks more important than ensuring long-term > competitiveness. Admit, further, that all governments are in the > hidden subsidy game right now, whether they boast about it, as in > France, or deny it as stoutly as Lord Mandelson - whose "this is not a > bailout" brings to mind Magritte's famous "ceci n'est pas une pipe" > painting. > > Agree, finally, that when you are the newly elected US President and > the money you are preparing to print runs into the trillions, the > queue at the trough is bound to form pretty fast. But the scale of the > temptation is precisely what makes Congress's populist "Buy America" > rider an irresponsible, innumerate, pernicious bit of political and > economic folly. > > If Mr Obama blocks this clause, he will anger the Left. If he does > not, retaliation is inevitable. That will shut American workers out of > "hundreds of billions of dollars of new business". Caterpillar, to > take just one example, is actively bidding for big infrastructure > projects in China; it reckons that "Buy America" would kill its > prospects there. > > The truth politicians need to ponder is that the financial crisis has > made sophisticates of us all. Most of us understand far more about how > globalisation works, how the pieces hang together, than we did before > everything went pear-shaped. We have made the connection between > prosperity and globalisation - at the simplest level, that cheap > T-shirts from Bangladesh leave us with more money for other things. We > do worry about our ability to compete; we demand clear and impartial > trade rules. But we can see how beggar-thy-neighbour protectionism > creates more beggars - costing, not "saving", jobs. It is time the > language of politics caught up with us. > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 11:41:39 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:41:39 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] Amazon Message-ID: <49847F43.4010904@effros.com> Excuse me, folks, but I shop at Amazon because you pay no sales tax. Wonder how well they will do if you have to pay tax for their goods like everyone else. Wonder how long it will take the geniuses in government to figure out that raising sales taxes on everybody else, but not Amazon, won't work. Amazon's entire profit would be eaten up if they had to pay tax on what they sold. B.E. January 30, 2009 Profit Rises at Amazon as Shoppers Seek Deals By BRAD STONE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/brad_stone/index.html?inline=nyt-per) SAN FRANCISCO ? In December, Amazon.com (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/amazon_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org) said it was having its ?best ever? holiday season. On Thursday, it offered proof. The company posted strong earnings in a brutal climate that has punished nearly every other retailer, online and offline. Amazon (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/amazon_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org)?s net profit rose 9 percent, to $225 million, or 52 cents a share, in the quarter that ended on Dec. 31, up from $207 million, or 48 cents, in the same quarter a year earlier. ?We remain relentlessly focused on serving customers with low prices, great selection and free shipping offers, including Amazon Prime,? Jeff Bezos (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/jeffrey_p_bezos/index.html?inline=nyt-per), founder and chief executive of Amazon, said in a statement. The company?s revenue climbed 18 percent to $6.70 billion, surpassing Wall Street?s expectations. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/thomson-reuters-corporation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) on average expected $6.44 billion in revenue. After hours, Amazon shares were trading around $56, an increase of more than 13 percent. In the regular trading session, before Amazon?s announcement, shares closed largely unchanged at $50. Amazon?s robust growth rate far exceeded the overall growth rate of other online retailers during the holidays, which was slightly down, the Web measurement company comScore (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/comscore-inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org) said. ?We?re particularly grateful for the unusually strong demand for Kindle in the fourth quarter,? Mr. Bezos said, referring to the company?s electronic book reader. It was out of stock for most of the holiday season, but the company encouraged consumers to order it for later delivery. Amazon released no new statistics on sales of the Kindle, which has been a hit. The company has scheduled a news conference in New York on Feb. 9 to introduce a new version of the device (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/amazons-kindle-2-will-debut-feb-9/). Some analysts say Amazon may have benefited from the economic slowdown as people turned to the e-commerce site to find bargains. ?Amazon may be enjoying a Wal-Mart (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/wal_mart_stores_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org) effect, with people trading down to Amazon to get better prices over the holiday,? said Mark Mahaney, an analyst at Citigroup (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/citigroup_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org). ?Amazon must have dramatically taken market share? from other retailers during the quarter, he said. But in a sign that Amazon was not immune to the recession, its operating margins fell to 4.06 percent from 4.78 percent, a result of heavy discounting to persuade reluctant shoppers to buy. Amazon offered a broad estimate for the current quarter and did not make any estimate for the year, as it normally had. It said it expected operating income of as much as $210 million, a 19 percent increase over the first quarter of 2008. At its most pessimistic, the forecast was for a 9 percent increase. One immediate challenge for Amazon is the liquidation of Circuit City. The electronics chain is emptying 154 stores, which could drive down the prices of items like flat-screen televisions. In the long term though, the carnage in the traditional retail sector is ?incredibly positive? for Amazon, said Scott W. Devitt, an analyst at Stifel Nicolaus. ?Amazon has never been in a stronger structural position, and you have a shrinking industry with a high fixed-cost base that is forcing bankruptcies,? he said. ?That business has to go somewhere.? In another sign of how Amazon.com has diversified its business beyond its original product lines of books, music and movies, the sales of electronics and general merchandise in the fourth quarter grew to $2.89 billion, a 31 percent increase over a year earlier. The sale of media items grew just 9 percent in the same period. Among Amazon?s newest product offerings and services are motorcycle and all-terrain-vehicle parts, a new Web service called CloudFront for businesses to deliver large content files to their customers, and Amazon Video on Demand, a digital television and movie store that is accessible online or through living room devices like TiVo (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/tivo-inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org). From flybrad at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 15:11:32 2009 From: flybrad at gmail.com (Brad Haslett) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:11:32 -0600 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] RNC Chairman In-Reply-To: <49846A0D.20709@effros.com> References: <50932F346B54460CA95F98FF5B13FCD1@YOURB88038198E> <400985d70901310439o22580e85k37d00251448924e6@mail.gmail.com> <49846A0D.20709@effros.com> Message-ID: <400985d70901311211n77ea8aeeu41cf17913949ff24@mail.gmail.com> Bill, As far as color goes, I agree with Deng Xiaoping, "I don't care if it's a white cat or a black cat, as long as it catches mice". Was Mr. Steele's skin color a factor in his selection? Maybe, I'm not so sure. It wasn't a factor for me, but if it was a factor in his selection, at least he's a genuine African-American and not the product of some itinerant who knocked-up some local girl and then promptly split town, leaving behind a son who switched back and forth between ethnic identities based on political convenience. The RNC tried Democrat-lite with McCain and it didn't work. Over 600 corporate jets flew into DC for the Obama inauguration, so many that they had to close a runway down at Dulles to park them all. The GOP has an image problem. Maybe Mr. Steele can solve that - I hope so. Having two (or more) political parties is healthy for any democracy. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But, you don't generate bi-partisanship by stating only days into a new administration, "I won. I'm trumping you on that", unless of course you are cocksure that what you're doing is correct, and if that's the case, just do whatever you want and suffer the political consequences or bask in the glory without sharing any credit. BTW, the elections (today) in Iraq should be over by now. There were multiple parties participating this time including the Sunnis. Maybe we should study them to figure out how to make democracy work. At least they know how to handle voter fraud - they stuck with the purple finger thing. Brad PS - Heading back to the hangar to take advantage of the free child labor. On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Bill Effros wrote: > either or > neither nor > > Obama is President because of his skin color. I think it was smart for > Republicans to select an RNC Chairman based on skin color to show they get > it, and neutralize this issue. > > Putting ideology aside, it is important for Republicans to establish > themselves as a counter-force to Democrats. > > Democrats were supported by a wide range of ideologies that can't hold > together. > > Things will go from bad to worse, and Republicans must be able to show they > strongly opposed some of the worst ideas. There will be plenty to pick > from. > > Republicans, also, are supported by a wide range of ideologies, and they > will do better if they understand this, instead of fighting ideological > battles with themselves. > > Bill Effros > > > > > > Brad Haslett wrote: > > Ed, > > The most salient criticism's made by Steele's detractors are precisely > those virtues you attributed to Blackwell and Dawson, ie, Steele is a > moderate and lacks organizational skills. Mr. Steele is a dynamic > speaker and obviously (at least to me) a very intelligent man. > > If he turns out to be a RINO, or a McCain style Democrat-lite, my > enthusiasm and support for him will fade quickly. We'll see. I hope > he grows into the job as well, he's got his work cut out for him. > Perhaps Blackwell can help keep him on the Conservative path and > Dawson and will lend his management skills. The GOP has an exciting > crop of candidates in the wings - Palin, Jindal, Cantor just to name > three. The more I watch Cantor is action the more I like the guy. > > I called my Congressman Marsh Blackburn the day of the House vote and > her staffer assured me she would vote against the "stimulus" package. > I've since e-mailed Senators Alexander and Corker and told both I > would neither "forgive or forget" any Republican who voted for it in > the Senate. This bill is horrible legislation and has nothing to do > with getting the economy back on its feet. > > Brad > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Ed Kroposki wrote: > > > Brad, > > I have heard Ken Blackwell speak and Steele speak. Blackwell was much more > a conservative and extolled American traditional values. Your man may be > good but he will have to grow into the job. We shall see he can step up a > notch. > > Katon Dawson, the guy he beat, runs an independent auto parts business when > he is not doing politics. The guy is a brilliant organizer and strong > organizational administrator. Dawson was not on a ego trip seeking national > recognition. He is just a natural organizer and effective administrative > leader who others suggested that he seek the RNC job. > > He got into the South Carolina Republican Chairman's job before his kids > came along and the business needed him. I was surprised he ran for the > national office because of his family. I believe he is giving up the South > Carolina chairmanship. While he said he supported Steele, I suspect that he > will turn to running his business now. He paid for his travels out of his > own pocket. I know his pocket is not deep. > > I do not expect him to run for any other public office. While he does well > speaking before a crowd, he is not the eloquent speaker that politicians > tend to be. He will do well in businesses because he has talent, integrity > and is a hard working good guy. > > Ed K > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.15/1923 - Release Date: 01/29/09 > 07:13:00 > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > > > _______________________________________________ > SwiftwaterGazette mailing list > SwiftwaterGazette at mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com > http://mailman.theswiftwatergazette.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/swiftwatergazette > > From bill at effros.com Sat Jan 31 18:03:34 2009 From: bill at effros.com (Bill Effros) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:03:34 -0500 Subject: [Swiftwater Gazette] NINE WORDS WOMEN USE Message-ID: <4984D8C6.3090107@effros.com> *NINE WORDS WOMEN USE * * (1) ** **_Fine _**: ** **This is the word women use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up. * * (2) ** **_Five Minutes _**: ** **If she is getting dressed, this means a half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given five more minutes to watch the game before helping around the house. * * (3) ** **_Nothing _**: ** **This is the calm before the storm. This means something, and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with nothing usually end in fine. * * (4) ** **_Go Ahead _**: ** **This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It! * * (5) ** **_Loud Sigh _**: ** **This is actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by men. A loud sigh means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you about nothing. (Refer back to # 3 for the meaning of nothing.) * * (6) ** **_That's Okay _**: ** **This is one of the most dangerous statements a women can make to a man. That's okay means she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake. * * (7) ** **_Thanks _**: ** **A woman is thanking you, do not question, or faint. Just say you're welcome. (I want to add in a clause here - This is true, unless she says 'Thanks a lot' - that is PURE sarcasm and she is not thanking you at all. DO NOT say 'you're welcome' . that will bring on a 'whatever'). * * (8) ** **_Whatever _**: ** **Is a woman's way of saying ** **F-- ** **YOU! * * (9) ** **_Don't worry about it, I got it _**: ** **Another dangerous statement, meaning this is something that a woman has told a man to do several times, but is now doing it herself. This will later result in a man asking 'What's wrong?' For the woman's response refer to # 3. * * * Send this to the men you know, to warn them about arguments they can ** **avoid if they remember the terminology. * * *** Send this to all the women you know to give them a good laugh, cause they know it's true!! * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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